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Do warbuggies have a purpose?

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#1
killercroc

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So every now and then I like to give a single unit in the codex a good look over and see just what it will be good at or in what situation will it shine... and for the life of me I cannot figure out what buggies actually do. First I realized they are the Ork equivalent to beakie attack bikes (and just to mention this now I do not have the codex just the index so I may be wrong on a few things) as they have almost the same template as warbikers do but with double the wounds. Interestingly they have the same combat abilities as 2 boyz which is nice however unlike a warbiker they do not have pistols or choppas and dakka guns. In contrast the beakie attack bike has a bolt pistol, frag & krak grenades and a twin bolter just like a normal bike has plus the heavy weapon. So Warbuggies get the stat-line as if they were an ork attack bike but do not get the same wargear as if they were one, however they get 1 more wound or 2 if you take a trakk. As far as firepower goes they get a twin big shoota or rack of rokkits (which idk why they cost more than twice what the single version costs which is GW's template for old twin weapons but I guess math is hard for some people) So we're looking at 6 S5 AP 0 D1 shots at 36" or 2 S8 AP -2 D3 shots at 24" for 58 or 72 points respectively. In comparison the beakie attack bike it gets 2/4 S4 AP 0 shots at 12/24" and 3 S5 AP -1 D1 shots at 36" or 1 S8 AP -4 D D6 shot at 24" for 57 or 74 points. So as far as firepower goes they both have an anti-infantry and anti-tank version for about the same points, the only downside is of course the beakie bike has a 3+ instead of a 4+ save and BS 3+ instead of 5+, although it does have heavy guns so the big one only hits on a 4+ if it moves which it most likely will be doing, so fairly close in most cases.

The issues begins when I look at the warbuggy directly next to the warbiker, as one would look at an attack bike next to a beakie bike. The warbuggy gets none of the same wargear as an attack bike would get so it is at a slight disadvantage even though it's same points wise. Now as for the Warbikers, they're 27 points each so you can get 2 per twin big shoota buggy and just shy of 3 per rokkit rack buggy. So with the points comparison 2 warbikers would get twice the number of shots as a buggy at half the range, as well as getting pistol shots if in CC and an extra choppa attack each so it's really looking like warbikers are far superior and more deadly in short to mid ranges 12 S 5 shots at 18", 2 S4 pistol shots in CC and 6 S4 melee attacks. Their 14" movement and re-roll to charge makes both bikers and buggies out to be a pretty big threat.

Next I looked at the buggy as sort of a mobile heavy support platform moving 14" staying out of range and shooting the gun at whatever, but realistically lootas do this job better looking at 3-4 lootas per buggy just minus the ability to relocate. Then there are deff koptas which are only 11 more points than a buggy but they have fly, scout, can get a KMB, bombs and always move 6" while advancing so they're better in every way. Then there are lobbas, kannons, tankbustas in trukks, etc. etc. so it seems for mid range anti-infantry/tank there are other options.

Next I looked at the buggies ability to show up anywhere on the board touching an edge but more than 9" away from an enemy model, for the twin big shoota buggy this is rather pointless as 14" movement and a 36" gun gives it a threat range of 50" so it can hit damn near anything on the board from the start. As per the rokkit buggy I thought this might be a good way to get some heavy fire into the opponents rear line to take out artillery and the like. Though the issue with this is two fold, firstly the opponent could just put his tanks so that nothing can come from the back board as everything is within 9" of an edge and protect the fronts of the tank with infantry. Second issue is even if you show up the chance of you taking out an artillery is slim, Wyvern, Basilisk, manticroe etc. they're all about the same but let us look at the basilisk for this. The tank is T6, 11 W and has a 3+ save for about 100 points. Ok, so say you have 5 rokkit buggies that all show up, that's 360 points so about 3.5 artillery worth. Now you'd get 10 shots, hitting on 5's is 3 hits, wounding on 3's is 2 wounds, and with AP -2 leaves him a 5+ say both fail that means 6 wounds go through... so half a dead basilisk. Next let us say they charge in and make the 9" and being generous say they can all attack... that'll give 20 attacks, getting 13 hits, 4 wounds after saves 1 maybe 2 more wounds leaving it at 4 maybe 3 wounds left. So after all that about 3.5 times the cost unit cannot even kill a single artillery piece. For the same price you could get 40 kommandos which would be a much bigger threat and splitting them into 5 ork teams you can get quite a few heavy weapons or burnas mixed in there.

So after all this I still cannot find out what the use in the army is. Their cost seems too high and their damage output is too low, Warbikers, lootas, Field guns, kommandos or tankbustas all feel like adequate units that can do the job better for cheaper. So is there anything I missed? Is there some hidden gem to the buggy that I'm just not seeing or is it just bad right now? And please no "wait til the codex" comes out comments because I'm trying to find a use for the unit with the info we have now, and who knows just when the codex will actually be released. A nice fix would be to give it 1 if not 2 dakkaguns, sluggas, choppas and stikkbombz all for the same cost to get it to be on par 1:1 with the beakie attack bike.

TL;DR

Do Warbuggies do anything or are they just sad little orks that drive in circles. 



#2
Gitkilla

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I mostly agree with your thoughts on them and I think that deff koptas are the biggest reason you shouldn't use them.

Anyways let's actually dive into the details for real since we need to concider all the things when actually comparing units:

 

- The two war biker comparison is pretty good I would say but keep in mind that a warbuggy on 1(+)W still has full damage output while the warbikers are 2 models so you lose half of it when taking a few wounds already. This could also have a moral effect.

 

- Flanking leaves you with options: Depending on how your oponent is deployed a flank could be used to create a 9" bubble around the buggy where he can't appear. A thing like a warbuggy also doesn't have to have major impact for it's small point cost so keeping it off the board longer to contest things later is an option too (deff koptas do the same tho)

 

- Poison: When you are playing things like dark panzee they will poison deff koptas or warbikers on 4+ while your warbuggies are vehicles which means 6+. Obviously not the biggest thing but if he wants them dead he will probably have to use some anti vehicle weapons which he could otherwise use to shoot your battlewagon for example.

 

So yeah the points I made are still very minor, but I think they have their utility shifted a little bit compared to units like warbikers and deff koptas. I agree that a twin big shoota should be 12 points and a rack of rokkits should be 24 points. The additional one wound they got over the deff kopta or two warbikers makes them more annoying to deal with (and sacrificing 2"M and 5 points you can also buy an aditional wound).

 

I honestly think they are fine (the lower price on the named twin weapons would be sweet tho) even if their role is not too different from our other choices. What I would like to see is a little focus of them really being the vehicles in your enemies face. To achive that I would like them to have the following special rule:

Runnin' gits over: "If a warbuggy / warbuggies successfully charge an INFANTERY unit roll a D6 for every buggy: On a 4+ the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound."

 

The option of a twin deff gun would indeed be cool even if it would need some adjustments since the heavy weapon rule would butcher the potential again. (In that case I would even buy your loota comparison btw).


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#3
Skumdreg

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"So after all this I still cannot find out what the use in the army is. Their cost seems too high and their damage output is too low..." How I feel about a lot of things in the ork index. Interesting read though.... Orks really do need a ground up redesign. We shouldn't have models that are basically useless versions of another model. XD

#4
killercroc

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I mostly agree with your thoughts on them and I think that deff koptas are the biggest reason you shouldn't use them.

Anyways let's actually dive into the details for real since we need to concider all the things when actually comparing units:

 

- The two war biker comparison is pretty good I would say but keep in mind that a warbuggy on 1(+)W still has full damage output while the warbikers are 2 models so you lose half of it when taking a few wounds already. This could also have a moral effect.

 

- Flanking leaves you with options: Depending on how your oponent is deployed a flank could be used to create a 9" bubble around the buggy where he can't appear. A thing like a warbuggy also doesn't have to have major impact for it's small point cost so keeping it off the board longer to contest things later is an option too (deff koptas do the same tho)

 

- Poison: When you are playing things like dark panzee they will poison deff koptas or warbikers on 4+ while your warbuggies are vehicles which means 6+. Obviously not the biggest thing but if he wants them dead he will probably have to use some anti vehicle weapons which he could otherwise use to shoot your battlewagon for example.

 

So yeah the points I made are still very minor, but I think they have their utility shifted a little bit compared to units like warbikers and deff koptas. I agree that a twin big shoota should be 12 points and a rack of rokkits should be 24 points. The additional one wound they got over the deff kopta or two warbikers makes them more annoying to deal with (and sacrificing 2"M and 5 points you can also buy an aditional wound).

 

I honestly think they are fine (the lower price on the named twin weapons would be sweet tho) even if their role is not too different from our other choices. What I would like to see is a little focus of them really being the vehicles in your enemies face. To achive that I would like them to have the following special rule:

Runnin' gits over: "If a warbuggy / warbuggies successfully charge an INFANTERY unit roll a D6 for every buggy: On a 4+ the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound."

 

The option of a twin deff gun would indeed be cool even if it would need some adjustments since the heavy weapon rule would butcher the potential again. (In that case I would even buy your loota comparison btw).

Thanks for the long reply, I'll just reply in kind as breaking up quotes is a tad annoying...

- True, with that one extra wound you do get that level of damage for the life span of 3 bikers, so every time a bike goes down that buggy is still working at top condition. Though the only concern is besides the buggy having 4 CC attacks and a bike having 3 at that 18" range a single bike still gets as much firepower as a buggy. So even if you lose one bike you're at 6 shots instead of 12 but 6 is all the buggy gets so even then bikers still seem a step above.

- So far with all the games I've seen anyone with units in reserves brings them in turn 1 to alpha strike. It's usually drop pod dreadnoughts or terminators. So using them to flank after they show up is a good idea, once they commit all their units the buggies can show up in a corner to try and take down their long range support or hold objectives. and if I go first have the buggies protect the board edges and try to focus any incoming units towards the center of the board where the main units will be. Though the only  issue again is Kommandos do the same thing for cheaper with the same firepower, just minus the speed.

- Poison, there are only two spike panzee players here so that one won't really come into play much, but it is good to know.

When looking at it though a wartrakk is almost always a better option. -2" movement and 5 points more for an extra wound is quite nice. Though with 5-6 wounds they have a weird sort of survivability that means things like bolters or heavy bolters aren't going to do so great against them, but a missile can take them down in a single shot. Statistically speaking a buggy needs 45 bolter rounds to go down, 24 heavy bolter rounds and about 3 missiles. So they do have that at least.

I still think they need just a little bit of an edge to beat out deff koptas or 2 warbikers. though I'm not quite sure what that is I don't think giving them a 4+ to run something over is quite that. Also a buggy isn't that big so a 4+ to cause a mortal wound seems a bit much. The only thing I can think of is like how beakie bikers get a turbo-boost for a 6" advance warbuggies should get a much better one, maybe 8" in addition more weapon options and a slight point reduction due to being 2 worse BS and 1 worse save but still costing the same as the beakie attack bike, I just don't feel 1 wound is enough compensation. 

 

"So after all this I still cannot find out what the use in the army is. Their cost seems too high and their damage output is too low..." How I feel about a lot of things in the ork index. Interesting read though.... Orks really do need a ground up redesign. We shouldn't have models that are basically useless versions of another model. XD

Yeah that's pretty fair, most units seem sub-par and there is some other unit out there that does the same thing better so it's difficult to say the least to find a use for a lot of units. A nice re-imagining of all units is what we really need to get a nice well rounded book with not just staying power but fun unique playstyles.



#5
warhead01

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Buggies and trakks definitely aren't what they used to be.  
I'm not really seeing much of a use aside from just fielding a solo just because I have the points. Maybe that's the best way right now. last edition I was using 3 to 6 of them for plinking away at infantry softening up units. Unfortunately, even though they're more or less the same for the points I just don't see it.  
I really hope they get new weapons options. They need something and I don't really know what.


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#6
Skumdreg

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Wel the turox 9rime went down 1pt so hoping if that can get a point reduction ours can. But would love to see more takka on these things (and trucks). Maybe the big shoota on buggies should do 20 shots.

#7
Gitkilla

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When looking at it though a wartrakk is almost always a better option. -2" movement and 5 points more for an extra wound is quite nice. Though with 5-6 wounds they have a weird sort of survivability that means things like bolters or heavy bolters aren't going to do so great against them, but a missile can take them down in a single shot. Statistically speaking a buggy needs 45 bolter rounds to go down, 24 heavy bolter rounds and about 3 missiles. So they do have that at least.

I still think they need just a little bit of an edge to beat out deff koptas or 2 warbikers. though I'm not quite sure what that is I don't think giving them a 4+ to run something over is quite that. Also a buggy isn't that big so a 4+ to cause a mortal wound seems a bit much. The only thing I can think of is like how beakie bikers get a turbo-boost for a 6" advance warbuggies should get a much better one, maybe 8" in addition more weapon options and a slight point reduction due to being 2 worse BS and 1 worse save but still costing the same as the beakie attack bike, I just don't feel 1 wound is enough compensation.

 

I think that's their main thing, they need to be focussed by quite a few things to go down.

 

Running over special rule could also be 5+ or 6+ even, just something to spice up combat a bit in a fluffy way.

 

The problem I see with 8" advance is that skorcha-buggies can shot first turn when moving 20" since assault weapons can still shoot after advancing. So effectively 28" if you do that compared to 20" + D6.


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#8
Badfang Brassaxe

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Back when Freebootaz introduced the Evil Sunz it occurred to me to run them as a Corporation type entity - the boyz caught the bus or came to 'work' on their bikes whilst the nobz got the chauffeur driven limo's. This effectively turned the buggies into a nob delivery system working a bit like chariots, if the nobz in the buggies got an upgrade to boss nob and could get to units which were likely to run-away then maybe they could test against his Ld, likewise he could maybe pile in and, with his stats, perhaps turn the combat and avoid the Ld test altogether. Also quite like the Deff Race Forty Thousand idea of picking up rodekil 'points' by turbo-boosting into an enemy charge instead of shooting overwatch :?



#9
warhead01

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Thinking about it a little more and it's really challenging to justify a buggy or a war trakk. the Scorcha is an exception. 
These things are like 60+ points each. I don't think that's any better than 10 shoota boys really. 5 of them is above 300 points. Also one is bassicly 10 big shootas. The deff kopta has a few options that, for me, make it a better choice. Even if I planned to use it for a sneak attack 5 Kommandos cost less points, even if I put in 2 big shootas or 2 rockits. 
I actually think war Bikers are a stronger choice than the buggy or trakk for their points. 30 shots for 81 points seems more cost effective. 

10 of those have far more shots for less that 5 trakks. 
Just stuff to think about. 
 


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#10
laughterofgods

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I've been really enjoying using buggies, typically skorcha trakks, but also rokkit buggies.  They are great at eating charges having a decent overwatch and being surprisingly resilient.  They can do the outflank-ish thing if needed.  And lastly, their speed means if I am playing a fast style list they can keep up which means I don't have a soft squishy backfield of fire support, but instead all of my stuff stays midfield.


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#11
PhillyT

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My only real issue with them (and grot tanks for that matter) is that they are too many points.  They are probably 25-40 points more than they should be given that they are a moderately durable gun on a soft but quick vehicle with barely any ability to actually hit a target.



#12
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My only real issue with them (and grot tanks for that matter) is that they are too many points.  They are probably 25-40 points more than they should be given that they are a moderately durable gun on a soft but quick vehicle with barely any ability to actually hit a target.

 

I disagree heavily on this. Everyone here seems to follow a concept where damage output should equal the point cost, no matter how hard things are to kill.

A warbuggy is 58 points - now if that's 40 points too expensive, would that mean you think warbuggies should be 18 points? That's straight up ridicolous imo.

 

In fact I don't think any vehicle should ever drop to under 40 points at all. And if so it would have to have very few wounds.

 

Low price things that can flank are too much of a no brainer. With 18 point buggies I would probably take 11 buggies (at least) every game just have flanking units that can show up last turn to contest shit or whatever. And even if they could not flank that would make them far too spamable. With 5 wounds you even need more than 1 lascannon on average to kill one of them.

 

I really don't know if you are trolling here but if you see no problems with 18p buggies you clearly didn't get how 40k works.


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#13
PhillyT

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The 40 points too high was the rokkit buggie.  At 72 points its a terrible option.  When they were 35 they were still mostly not worth their points.  The are less durable now, though do get the chance of having two hits.

 

I don't think the shoota buggie should be more than 35 and the rokkit buggie no more than 45.  Neither has the offensive output nor durability to justify the point costs.  In most cases you are better off taking a trukk.  Far tougher,few weapons, but able to transport models in a pinch even if not deployed specifically to carry a unit.



#14
Skumdreg

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My only real issue with them (and grot tanks for that matter) is that they are too many points.  They are probably 25-40 points more than they should be given that they are a moderately durable gun on a soft but quick vehicle with barely any ability to actually hit a target.

I look at some of the beakie stuff with 3+ saves and better BS and stuff and it really confuses me when I see our points. A Land raider, for example, is far cheaper than a Gork but is better in almost every way. 2+ save, can be about 100-50 points cheaper, better transport cap, better BS, averagely more firepower... Even if you account for close combat the Landraider does d3 Mortal wounds on a 4+ so it's not useless in CC unless against hordes. (although obviously the Gork and Mork is far superior in CC but I would question if it's worth 50-100pts extra to be better at 1 thing that has lots of negatives). But that's getting into another conversion... Point is, things like the Buggie is (in my mind) kinda a clone of another far superior unit but is somehow more expensive or less effective for the points. As I always thought with Orks... 1 Ork by itself is useless against 1 beakie but 10 orks might have a chance. Same with Buggies... if 1 buggies is worse than an attack bike then that's fine... but 3 buggies should equal the odds. Not saying that's how the points should be but it's how I see Orks in a lore perspective. 



#15
warhead01

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I disagree heavily on this. Everyone here seems to follow a concept where damage output should equal the point cost, no matter how hard things are to kill.

A warbuggy is 58 points - now if that's 40 points too expensive, would that mean you think warbuggies should be 18 points? That's straight up ridicolous imo.

 

In fact I don't think any vehicle should ever drop to under 40 points at all. And if so it would have to have very few wounds.

 

Low price things that can flank are too much of a no brainer. With 18 point buggies I would probably take 11 buggies (at least) every game just have flanking units that can show up last turn to contest shit or whatever. And even if they could not flank that would make them far too spamable. With 5 wounds you even need more than 1 lascannon on average to kill one of them.

 

I really don't know if you are trolling here but if you see no problems with 18p buggies you clearly didn't get how 40k works.

This is what I was getting at, I do think in terms of output.  That was why I was bringing up the buggy/trakks weight in Big shootas. 
I don't even field Big Shootas in my mobs right now because close combat has been so good for me I didn't expect I'd use them very much. (I should really say I have been focused on close combat and getting there quickly. ) 

In my old lists where I was combat focused war trakks were my go to for mobile shooting, with a large chunk of the boys who were never going to shoot. 
Foe what these Buggies and Trakks cost, excluding the scorcha for now, I think they need more shots.  I think it would be just a bit better with 3 rockit shots or 9 big shoota shots for the same costs. Well, it would give me the feelz betta about it. Maybe the schorcha trakk should be D3X2 of D6+D3 just cause fire good.  
As far as a points reduction of what we actually have. I can't see, fairly, dropping them more than 10-15 points. Some where in there.
I do think I need to get more table time with them to really know what they're about. 

This would be a good opertunity for GW to scrap the old trakks and Buggies for both a new model and fitting rules, which I would hope would mean new weapons. Some kind of killer Ork space guns and more dakka.


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#16
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Directly comparing the models makes no sense. Even if something another army has is better in every way, we could have other things that are better than their stuff in every way.

 

And that's fine because armies should be different. As an ork player you can't buy an attack bike but you can buy ork boyz. The points you pay for something simply need to be viewed in context to all the choices you can pick.

 

I am not arguing for buggies here in the first place but against direct comparisons. I can see where you are comming from but we are orks and we can be a working faction without having decent things that can rival other armies choices in every slot. Not like beakies have anything on the cheap infantery side that compares to ork boyz.

 

I would probably try all the buggy versions with twin big shoota being 12p and rack of rockets being 24p and after that you can still try to go down 10p on both versions if they are too situational.

That said I still value their flexibility in play and their ability to tank more than stuff we compared to them. In the end that's my point for saying normal buggy shouldn't drop under 40 and w/ rokkits shouldn't drop under 50.


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#17
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40 and 50 would at least make them an option.  I think in most cases, people would still chose a different option



#18
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I can def see where you are comming from and the deff koptas do rival their spot big time like I said in my first post.

 

I just think you can't go lower really because at some breakpoint they will turn into something worth spamming. Otherwise you will need to give them more shots because their wounds are pretty much the strong point about them right now.


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#19
warhead01

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Has anyone come up with what they feel is the best way to use them? Saying Don't use them isn't an answer. 
I'm still looking at a few solo trakks or buggies. No Moral check and possibly forces the other player to commit more fire power or split dice.

Ah, one more thing I've been wishing for for all ork vehicles. Ramshackle on everything. 


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#20
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I would say just cause some distraction, charge units that can't really deal damage with S4 or less in melee.

The wounds and T5 really help with that, fire the weapons if you can but even then for its point cost you should be able to lock some ranged stuff unless he turns some big guns on the buggy - in which case they don't shoot your other things. Just make sure to have some more tough targets. I think if you run a battlewagon or a killtank even buggies can make them split their anti vehicle firepower. If not try charging the anti tank things with the buggy, unless he gets lucky overwatch hits you will probably be fine.

 

As I keep saying it has good utility. with a twin big shoota you can also easily sit on an objective and still fire on something within 36". The fast reactive plays you can make with them really help out. you can even block enemy paths if they need a charge in turn xy to get onto an objective. It might all be smaller things but with decent chances to survive if no anti tank weapons shot it you are left with many options to use it.


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