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Imperial Gaurd Codex review -what this means for Orks?

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#41
Dribble Joy

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If GW were really smart, they would give us back the control over the gear in our characters. For most players, the attractiveness of the Orks was in their conversion potential.

Standard caharacters is good and all but being able to glu together anything you like is where the real potential is.

 

Technically a standard WB has 12 different weapon options. A big mek has even more.



#42
PhillyT

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They return options in the codices.



#43
Zark the Damned

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Why would ork bikers be in danger?

Specifically characters on Bikes. As shown by this and the Codex Beakies book GW have been cutting out options for which they don't make miniatures. beakie and CSM lost Bikes as an option for characters, CSM also lost the unusual mounts like Juggernauts and Palanquins, 'umie lost Rough Riders. If there isn't a mini available, don't rely on it being in the next book.



#44
Skumdreg

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Holy mother of mork! https://youtu.be/Avvfhi5qEHY

#45
Gitkilla

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Holy mother of mork! https://youtu.be/Avvfhi5qEHY

 

Halfway through. 40 shots punisher hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s is brutal.


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#46
killercroc

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Anyone who designed it so a tank could get 40 S5 shots hitting on a 2+ with re-rolls of 1's should be taken out back and shot. That is just stupid. 


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#47
Gitkilla

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Anyone who designed it so a tank could get 40 S5 shots hitting on a 2+ with re-rolls of 1's should be taken out back and shot. That is just stupid.

 

Grinding advance could have been: Shooting a second time but the shots can't get effected by rerolls. Also punisher would do fine with 16 shots imo.


Metal elitist & into game/level design.


#48
Badfang Brassaxe

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Anyone who designed it so a tank could get 40 S5 shots hitting on a 2+ with re-rolls of 1's should be taken out back and shot. That is just stupid. 

It doesn't bode well does it - why even roll 40 dice and then re-roll the 1's if only one or two are likely to miss, they could as easily have said 40-D6 hits   :bang



#49
killercroc

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Grinding advance could have been: Shooting a second time but the shots can't get effected by rerolls. Also punisher would do fine with 16 shots imo.

 

I'll admit that leman russes needed a little more firepower but double the shots from the turret was too much. On a T8 12 wounds and 3+ save base it's pretty durable, that with hull and sponson weapons. That and getting rid of vehicle weak rear armor and fire points... Grinding advance should have been they can fire all the heavy weapons without pentaly and they can re-roll the number of shots from the turret. Would have been much more reasonable.
 

It doesn't bode well does it - why even roll 40 dice and then re-roll the 1's if only one or two are likely to miss, they could as easily have said 40-D6 hits   :bang

Yeah, statistically you'll get 38-39 hits which is just... way too much. I mean sure you can only get this on pask with buffs and whatnot but he gets those 40 2+ re-roll shots and every other tank gets 40 4+ shots it's a stupidly high level of firepower with no downside.  Pask will on average kill 21 boyz a turn and a normal bunisher will kill about 12 with their turrets alone, Mork save us if they have 3 heavy bolters. And they dropped the tanks to what, 130-ish points? Yeah they almost kill their points worth in models a turn, which is just stupid. 



#50
Gitkilla

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Think we will have to stay out of the range with ork boyz etc. to force punishers to move. From what I got Cadians can only reroll 1s if they don't move and the punisher cannon is a heavy weapon (thank Gork) so -1 to hit. Still covers a big zone you shouldn't walk into with weak orks.

 

Also take cover can easily boost the Leman Russ armor save to 2+ which seems a bit strong imo. Ork boy armies will need some mek gunz trying to gun that thing down fast.


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#51
killercroc

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Think we will have to stay out of the range with ork boyz etc. to force punishers to move. From what I got Cadians can only reroll 1s if they don't move and the punisher cannon is a heavy weapon (thank Gork) so -1 to hit. Still covers a big zone you shouldn't walk into with weak orks.

 

Also take cover can easily boost the Leman Russ armor save to 2+ which seems a bit strong imo. Ork boy armies will need some mek gunz trying to gun that thing down fast.

Unless they changed it Russ can move and fire their turrets with no -1 to hit, it's only the hull and sponson weapons that don't get that. Unless of course they changed the rules. And the Punisher is a 20" gun so they have a threat range of 25" for 40 shots and 30" for 20 shots so staying out of range isn't a big option. The only real defense would be a trukk or battlewagon.

As for cover just put the russ in area terrain and put enough guardsmen in front of it to obscure it and it'll get that 2+ easy.  

The only good counter I can think of would be KMK's or smasha gunz. Or you know, shit tons of tankbustas in battlewagons. 



#52
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Unless they changed it Russ can move and fire their turrets with no -1 to hit, it's only the hull and sponson weapons that don't get that. Unless of course they changed the rules. And the Punisher is a 20" gun so they have a threat range of 25" for 40 shots and 30" for 20 shots so staying out of range isn't a big option. The only real defense would be a trukk or battlewagon.
As for cover just put the russ in area terrain and put enough guardsmen in front of it to obscure it and it'll get that 2+ easy.  
The only good counter I can think of would be KMK's or smasha gunz. Or you know, shit tons of tankbustas in battlewagons.

But at this point you're spending more points to kill one tank with an already high wound rate. So every trukk and tankbusta team you add your opponent can just add another russ creating an endless cycle of pain. Forget conscripts spam! I see future tournaments just being 2k points worth of russ spam! Also did you see his command points?! 15 command points and every time da used one he got one in a 5 up! Plus the 4+ to orders continue onto another troop! That's 50%! One of the most powerful things a 'umie army has and they don't even need it to win has a 50% chance of being even better.... if da didn't all have 5+ Invulnerable and 5+fnp, this game would have been over turn 2.

#53
warhead01

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I haven't heard how many points these tanks are going to be. I don't have the index they are in.  How many of these tanks will we really see in a list. 
What's their toughness, save and wounds?


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#54
laughterofgods

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I think in general we have been seeing that hordes of Orks are no longer working.  There are still a ton of ways to kill hordes of guys.  A Stormraven with a reroll character can kill 20 or more a turn, this punisher thing can kill 40.  'umie players have been putting a ton of D6 shot mortars on the table.  I think we need T6 things, be it trukks or battlewagons to really have much of a chance.


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#55
Skumdreg

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I haven't heard how many points these tanks are going to be. I don't have the index they are in.  How many of these tanks will we really see in a list. 
What's their toughness, save and wounds?

Don't quote me but I was told they are about 100-200pts each. So you would be looking at about 10-15 of them each potentially firing 20 shots each with 12 wounds each. This is what i was told from my 'umie friend. If true then even at the lower end you could be looking at about 1-200 shots per turn rerolling ones.

#56
warhead01

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That doesn't sound right to me. The Battle wagon starts at 161(?)  At or above 200 points would be realistic for a Russ. If that's the trend then maybe our vehicles will come down a little in points. I don't expect it though. 
I couldn't imagine more than 3 or 4 in a list.  I will say I see it as a good reason to run vehicles and MANZ as well as what I already bring. 

If they can't shoot into combat then I'm right back to working a first turn charge list against that. (I mean if they have that many tanks.) Nothing stops me from piling into the extra tanks once I make combat 10 to 15 tanks will get boxed in blocked from los, not shooting and clobbered. A fairly boring game.


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#57
Skumdreg

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That doesn't sound right to me. The Battle wagon starts at 161(?)  At or above 200 points would be realistic for a Russ. If that's the trend then maybe our vehicles will come down a little in points. I don't expect it though. 
I couldn't imagine more than 3 or 4 in a list.  I will say I see it as a good reason to run vehicles and MANZ as well as what I already bring. 

If they can't shoot into combat then I'm right back to working a first turn charge list against that. (I mean if they have that many tanks.) Nothing stops me from piling into the extra tanks once I make combat 10 to 15 tanks will get boxed in blocked from los, not shooting and clobbered. A fairly boring game.

No just looked it up. Without the point reduction in this new codex the russ is about 160pts.... also 'umie have a thing where they can shoot into combat now witht he new codex. This is why I am confused. Our battlewagon is the same cost without the codex. In the index is is s7 t8. Also you can set several up in one unit but when game starts they can separate.

#58
warhead01

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Ok, 160 points is that before or after they pay for their guns ? 
doesn't really matter if it's there My ladz find a way to beat it. seriously, If they're not playing to score objectives and points like that they're doomed to fail. 
Kill points aren't in every game and they wont table every opponent. I'll score an objective with a Gun krew they cant target if I need to.  
I did read that at least one 'umie army can shoot into close combat but that's still using a command point and will limit that to one uni doing that at a time. And and roll of a 1 hits one of their own. (Something like that.) 

One of the more important things I'm noticing just now is this index is so much better than our last codex was that I can come up with ways to fight that 'umie army and feel like I have a chance. A good chance.  Yes they'll beat me for a few games but I don't expect that to be a constant. 
 


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#59
Skumdreg

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No just looked it up. Without the point reduction in this new codex the russ is about 160pts.... also 'umie have a thing where they can shoot into combat now witht he new codex. This is why I am confused. Our battlewagon is the same cost without the codex. In the index is is s7 t8. Also you can set several up in one unit but when game starts they can separate.

that is after all equipment and weapons have been added to it. Although I hear it's cheaper in the new codex but not sure about that. Problem with gun krew is I can't be bothered to buy buy three packets of them for their price and I suck at modding my own stuff. What annoys me though is the 'umie the heavy weapons (mortors) come in packs of 3 for cheaper than out big guns! I would love some small arty (if they were £20 for 3 I would buy two packets of them!).



#60
PhillyT

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That doesn't sound right to me. The Battle wagon starts at 161(?)  At or above 200 points would be realistic for a Russ. If that's the trend then maybe our vehicles will come down a little in points. I don't expect it though. 
I couldn't imagine more than 3 or 4 in a list.  I will say I see it as a good reason to run vehicles and MANZ as well as what I already bring. 

If they can't shoot into combat then I'm right back to working a first turn charge list against that. (I mean if they have that many tanks.) Nothing stops me from piling into the extra tanks once I make combat 10 to 15 tanks will get boxed in blocked from los, not shooting and clobbered. A fairly boring game.

 

I don't agree that a Leman Russ should be over 200.  With BS 4+ and not a great deal of real offensive power (those side sponsons add cost and even that double shooting turret weapon will only average 3-4 hits on a battlecannon shot with double shooting).  

 

A Battlewagon has good melee and great transport capacity on a more durable chassis for only 172-190.


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