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Big Guns!

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19 replies to this topic

#1
IronShark

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So, getting back into Orks, looking to start some discussion. So I thought I'd start here.

 

What're peoples takes on our artillery choices, the Big Gunz and Mek Gunz? Have you used them in battle much? Are they outclassed by things like Lootas?

 

Just to start out with, the points for them aren't all that visible at a glance, as you pay for the gun, the crew, and then the type of gun, so here's the point summed up for each:

 

Kannon 27
Lobba 30
Zzap 30
 
Bubblechukka 57
Kustom Mega Kannon 48
Smasha 41
Traktor 40
 
So, the KMK is about twice the cost of a regular kannon. 
 
 
 
The multiple unit count thing brought up in the other thread is pretty significant. It makes all the artillery pretty untenable choices in some scenarios, even more so for the cheap Big Gunz.
 
So, I think the first thing to acknowledge is that if you're D6ing scenarios out of the Matched Play, maybe they're not great. From this point on, lets assume a non-KP scenario, or that you've house ruled KPs into working in a more reasonable manner.
 
Them being broken into separate units seems like a not insignificant advantage for the cheap-ass units. They're effectively immune to morale, in that if one takes a lascannon to the face and dies, the others don't care. It also means that shots could potentially be wasted; all from one unit must be allocated before rolling dice. So lets say you have 2 Kannons, and a unit shooting at them has 3 multi-damage shots. They'll put 2 shots into 1 Kannon, and 1 shot into the other. If the first 2 hit and wound and do 3+ damage, and the third misses, the excess on the first won't carry over to the second, and the death of the first doesn't cause a morale check for the second. Not bad.
 
The Lobba does stand out as one of our only indirect options, and with a pretty solid range, it fills a niche that's otherwise empty. I used to use Lobbas fairly heavily, back when they used blast templates and scatter dice. I wonder if they still hold up. They seem solidly the best anti light infantry choice, but anti light infantry seems to be something basic Boyz do very, very well, so it might be better to use the slot for something that's got good AP.
 
The Traktor gun seems to stand out as a bit of a 'why would I ever take this?' It does less damage than a basic Kannon, except against flyers, where is does equal damage. I feel like they forgot to add something, like a bonus to hit flyers or something?
 
I could probably hypothesize onwards for quite a while, so I think I'll just cut it short. So, what are your thoughts/experiences with Big Guns?

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#2
warhead01

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So far I like Kannons, Smasha guns and KMK's. I'm planning to scrounge up 6 Lobbas just to kill pathfinders. 
The bubble Chukka is very random a use at your own risk kinda thing. I like it but it's basically a distraction unit.  My last game I rolled 6,6,6,5. So it got attention after that. I like Big Gunz and Mek Gunz quite a lot. (More than Lootas and Tank Bustas.)


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#3
killercroc

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As far as it goes currently with the Mek gunz the KMK is at the top over all the other ones, due to high strength, AP, range, shots and damage. It's better against flyers than the traktor kannon, infantry than the kannon, vehicles than the smasha, so I'd say it's the best one to go with, that paired with it's cost it is pretty solid. The only gun that is slightly better is the bubblechukka but it's just "randomly" better. If you can get 4 shots at S5 AP3 and 2 damage or so it's a really good gun, and those numbers are pretty average too. The issue here is the cost and it's too random to rely on, and it's really only good against light to heavy infantry but not much else.

 

As for normal Gunz personally I think the lobba is much too expensive, but since you can hide it it isn't all that bad to take. The reason I see it as bad is because guardsmen can take a mortar team for 9 points which means gun wise you're paying 21 points for +1 strength. I know you get the toughness and wounds but for an indirect gun those don't matter a whole lot. Kannon is a standard missile so it's a solid choice, nothing super good or bad about it. The Zzap gun I think has hidden potential, with an average of 7 strength it's sort of like a supped up plasma cannon, good range, AP and damage and with a chance to do mortal wounds. This gun I think is best for your anti-T7 tanks and walkers or taking out Terminators or other bulky stuff like Centurions or the new primaris heavy guys. 

Really though when it comes to cost to battlefield efficiency I think the KMK has it of all the guns but they're all useful in their own way... more or less. My only issue is acquiring the gunz as the Mek gunz at $45 a pop are an investment and the normal gunz are bad through GW so either make your own or buy them online, for the most part you can find them at around $25 a pop which isn't terrible.

It really boils down to how many field gunz you want. Something like 5 Lobbas to deal with large units of like guardsmen or nids, 3 KMK to deal with heavy troops and maybe some kannons to deal with tanks. It's hard to decide what to do with the battery if you don't have a plan for the rest of the army, but going with either all shooty Orks or a fast hitting trukk army backed by kannons I assume to be pretty solid. 



#4
Nipo_5

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I have used two of the options quite a lot, 5 lobbas and 5 KmK. The other options I can not answer for.

The Lobbas seem great on paper but in my opinion they fill a gap of infantry killer that are likely served better with a unit of boyz, stormboys or the likes. My idea for using them was that for a price tag og 150 (5 pieces) they could hide behind LOS blockers, score objectives and still influence the battlefield with 48" range. One could of course use grots for this but then morale kicks in and they can not do much else.
I used this combo in tournament last weekend and they scored me a lot of malestrom. You can really spread the out after depoyment and those pairs of grotgunners is really annoying for the opponent to spend firepower on. You only need one grot in range of the guns so 2 or 3 pairs of grots can go off on objective holding. They can not be targeted either as long as your guns are nearer. 4 point pairs of "characters" are actually really strong:)
The damage output on lobbas is not so good imho. Stenght 5 is good but the shots vary to much and the "to hit" as opposed to templates hurts them even if it is on 4s.
To summarize. They have a nice dual role but when i faced a guard army with mortars I realized that we pay a hefty cost of 30 points where they do the same for faaaar less:( Despite that, I will absolutely field them again!

The KMK is generally viewed as our best mek gun option. The same goes for the versatility when it comes to using the grots. Only difference is that here I had 25 of them to move around:) The output from these puppies are quite frightening and if long range firepower is a component you want in your army these are the best our arsenal can provide. I have shot down both Magnus the Red and a Lord Of Skulls!
The KmK must be placed savvy and the enemy will have a nice target to look at and can outshoot you with 48" inch weapons if he has access to this. This, along with the mortal wounds on one's, made me loose a few of these from time to time. The enemy will dedicate firepower towards them.
Now, if you are taking six of these they go from beiing "nice to have" to a unit you should build a little upon. A big mek with KFF in the middle to get that 5 up pluss the repair is therefore worth it imo.
When I did that, my opponent swore a lot:) One can not have a better feedback;)

Anyways, hope I helped you along with some tips and good luck;)
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#5
IronShark

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I think the Bubble Chukka would only really be good at targeting one wound infantry models with a decent save. That way you have a 'dump stat,' ie when you pick the first number to assign, you can assign your lowest roll to the damage stat.

 

EG, if you roll 1,3,4,6 you can go first, put 1 on damage. 

 

Still, KMK will typically end up more lethal, and with Primaris out there being an entire army of 2 wound models invalidating that plan, yeah, KMK seems the way to go, despite having pretty solid odds of self inflicted wounds.


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#6
FlamingDeth

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Quick stupid question, are the gunners themselves armed with something, or once the gunz are destroyed do they just become the world's mediocrest assault unit? I dont see anything about gear for them in the unit entry and wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

#7
IronShark

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The gun crew are pretty much running around in the nude, devoid of any equipment.

 

If the gun dies, they can babysit objectives, and can't be shot unless they're the closest unit. So, depending on scenario, still potentially VERY useful. 

 

They will have to take a morale check though, as the gun is part of the unit, and a model in the unit died. So for Big Gunz with only 2 crew, there's not insignificant odds they'll vanish.


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#8
warhead01

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Funny thing. Each gun and each Krew are their own unit. So I don't think there's anything against moving a surviving krew toward another gun, just in case it needs more krew. 


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#9
toaae

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I've been running 3 KMKs in a single unit choice in my league. And they add some decent firepower the rest of my list lacks. Considering the unit only runs 144 points, I've been generally happy with them. Also, I feel the way the artillery rules works could lend to some clever gameplay. Those 3 guns could all be "manned" by one of those grot units, leaving the other two, after deployment, free to wander off, and sit on objectives, or screen against deep strikers. I'm going to play with that a bit more in the future.

As for the gun itself, there is no question that point for point, and gun for gun, the KMK simply beats every other option in almost all scenarios. The lobba has a place, with greater range and indirect fire, but otherwise, the KMK is the only gun to use.

Last thing, about the bubble-chucka. Obviously, a difficult gun to estimate what you're going to get. But considering that you effectively get to choose 3 of the options (the 4th being the only one left, so you decide it when you choose the 3rd one), I do think it can be effective. I wouldn't use it on heavy vehicles, but against lighter ones, and expensive infantry, I'd think you could see some results. My advice is to always put the worst number where you least need it. Rolled a 2, and shooting at termies? In the damage stat. But against nobz? AP. Ect.


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#10
IronShark

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 Those 3 guns could all be "manned" by one of those grot units, leaving the other two, after deployment, free to wander off, and sit on objectives, or screen against deep strikers. I'm going to play with that a bit more in the future.

 

I'm not 100% sure that's legal. While Grot crew can fire a gun not in their unit, the grots are still attached to their gun as one unit, so I think they have to retain unit coherency to their gun.


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#11
killercroc

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I'm not 100% sure that's legal. While Grot crew can fire a gun not in their unit, the grots are still attached to their gun as one unit, so I think they have to retain unit coherency to their gun.

They FAQ'd it that each gun and each grot gunner squad is a separate unit. So yes, the crew can wonder off and do their own thing whilst one unit stays back to man the guns. Is it rules as intended? Not even close, but it's not against the rules either. Also why grots have that "cannot target the crew if they're not the closest" rule, otherwise that rule makes zero sense if the crew are attached to the gun since wounds spill over in units... but it is GW we're talking about so... it's 50/50 on whether they understand their own rules. 

Which is why I made the other topic about squad size and KP, cause if you take 5 Big gunz that's 10 units, 5 units of 1 kannon and 5 units of 2 grots.



#12
Moe Dakka

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I feel the way the artillery rules works could lend to some clever gameplay. Those 3 guns could all be "manned" by one of those grot units, leaving the other two, after deployment, free to wander off, and sit on objectives, or screen against deep strikers. I'm going to play with that a bit more in the future.

 

 

STOOPIT GROT TRIX!!!!!!

 

Have the crew soak up overwatch!



#13
IronShark

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They FAQ'd it that each gun and each grot gunner squad is a separate unit.

 

I forgot to check the FAQ. You are indeed correct. I thought 5 guns -> 5 units was a lot of units. 5 -> 10 is crazy. Yeah, completely non-viable in standard kill points scenarios, but an interesting potential boost in non-KP matches. 


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#14
AnthonyS

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I've been running 4 Lobbaz in my lists for a while and they always do well.  The 48" range makes a big difference, allowing you to hit rear enemy units that would otherwise be out of range of the other guns.  It also forces opponents to commit heavy weapons to kill them (or send a unit to get them), they can't be taken out by easily by troops or things like heavy bolters.



#15
FlamingDeth

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That all sounds fantastic. After seeing how bad a single mortar squad can hit my lines recently I've been tempted to bash up some lobbas, and it sounds like if I wanted to I could move some crew from a KMK to operate them if I wanted, and leave all the backfield objectives to the sneaky stealy no good runts? Seems like a kunnin plan.

#16
Skumdreg

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The pricing is outrageous for these weapons! There should be at least 3 in each packet not one! The other factions have 3 artillary in their packets ('umies mortar team for example). Anyone know any alternatives?

#17
AnthonyS

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The pricing is outrageous for these weapons! There should be at least 3 in each packet not one! The other factions have 3 artillary in their packets ('umies mortar team for example). Anyone know any alternatives?

 

I just converted mine using the wheels and frame from an Orc Chariot (had some around that i'm not using).  The gun-shield was a spare part from trukk and the gun barrel was left over bits from the battlewagon.  



#18
killercroc

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The pricing is outrageous for these weapons! There should be at least 3 in each packet not one! The other factions have 3 artillary in their packets ('umies mortar team for example). Anyone know any alternatives?

Unfortunately most places that have made Ork Artillery are still a bit spendy, cheaper than GW mind you but it'll cost a little bit.

Puppetswar has an Ork gun platform that's somewhat a Mek Gun, it comes with a large kannon, some sort of electric gun and a machine gun and it's about $33 US. https://puppetswar.e...?id_product=386

Kromlech has some as well, They have roughly a Kannon, a lobba and a Mek Gun that's just like a big spark gun. Those being about $17 for the field gunz and $30 for the Mek gunz. https://bitsofwar.com/13-miniatures

Short of those I haven't found any besides kit-bashing and making them out of plasticard. Hope that helps some and Isn't just showing you what you've already found  :thumbs



#19
warhead01

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There was a company that made MDF kits that built out to be 3 "mek guns"  but I can't recall who made them.


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#20
orkdom

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Welcome back Ironshark! Really nice to see you back on here; I remember devouring all your tactical and battle report stuff from a decade ago to help me think more saliently about playing Orks with some competence. It was enormously useful material back then, so it's great to see you're around and getting involved.

 

I've been playing ITC events and NOVA-style missions almost exclusively since 8th dropped, just dove straight back into "Competitive 40k"TM with the Orks when the rules dropped. In ITC, Kill Points are not Units Destroyed but Power Level Destroyed, so the Guns don't become a massive problem in those scenarios, and once you don't have to worry about that potential pitfall, I must say, Mek Guns are some of the best units Orks have got!

 

One of their best tricks is just the presence of the Grot Krew, as alluded to above. They're easy to hide and hard to target, and it's quite correct that they don't all need to hang around the guns. These guys have won me multiple games at events just by hiding on Objectives, out of LOS and with other models of mine up-field to prevent even things like Mortars from shooting at them. I've played against Chaos Hellforged Falchions with Prescience and nearby Lords that just rip my army off the board, but come out on top because he couldn't find the little Gretchin in time to stop them from scoring me all sorts of points.

 

Just this weekend, I played against another Ork player in the final round of an RTT, where we were sitting 1st and 2nd with a double-digit points-gap between myself (I was 2pts behind my opponent) and the 3rd-place player (Orks are back!). My opponent did something very clever with his Grot Krew, which is that he deployed just one unit of 5 behind all 5 of his KMK, and wrapped the rest up and around the edges of his deployment zone-- effectively preventing my army from getting a charge on anything except Krew should I have got the jump on him. It worked perfectly, as I was unable to get around his Grot Krew Bubble Wrap, and then he in turn was able to get the charge on me.

 

That's a fantastic trick to use against armies like Genestealer Cult, or Alpha Legion Khorne Berserkers, units that really rely on just showing up and immediately catching you in assault before you can do any damage to them; if all they're assaulting are Extraneous Gretchin, they're in some very big trouble come your turn!

 

Now, as to the guns themselves, and beyond little tricks you can pull with their Krew, I think the clear best choices are Lobbas for Big Guns and KMK for Mek Guns. Lobbas, unfortunately, are still just too expensive for what they do in the present game; why on earth GW thinks they're worth so much more than 'Umie Mortars I don't think I'll ever understand. But, that being said, they still do some good damage, and they can do it pretty much wherever you want them to do it, which means they have great utility.

 

KMK are the number one biggest stand-outs of all the gun-types for me. They're the best weapon Orks have, point-for-point, for killing high-T, good-Sv enemy models, be they Razorbacks, Taurox, enemy Flyers, or even a Primarch.* KMK have the shots and the BS to get a good number of consistent hits on targets, and have the AP and D to consistently turn those hits into some wounds. They can occasionally really flatline, but, I dunno, I guess that's Orks? I did 17 wounds to my own guns in one game, which was amusing. That's probably an outlier, though!

 

I include at least 4 KMK in every list I make right now for events, and they really do a lot of different things for me. Certainly recommend giving them a whirl.

 

*At least unless you add Wyrdboy Smites into the mix... nothing is better than automatic Mortal Wounds! Wyrdboyz are dumb, Smite is just too good, et cetera, and so on.


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