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Ork artillery and "unit" count

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8 replies to this topic

#1
killercroc

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So I was looking at the Ork field guns for some fire support and something hit me, when you deploy them everything gets set up but after that every Big gun and squad of Grot gunners become separate units. So if I take a full field gun unit of 5 gunz they then become 10 units in total, so that means for the Missions 'No Mercy' where every unit killed is a point and 'Big guns never tire' where every heavy support unit is a point then the Big gunz are a huge liability because you're putting some of the easiest kill points possible on the table. 

Now I saw nothing in the FAQ about these mission and these units so I'm not sure if nobody brought it up or GW just didn't care to comment. So what would you guys think? The victory points should only be awarded once the entire battery is destroyed, or just simply not play those mission. Cause I don't think GW meant that a victory point is given once the entire unit as taken in army building versus 'unit' as they are put on the table is destroyed because in that case multi-model vehicles units that deploy together but are separate like Dreads and guard vehicles would almost never offer up points because it would be too challenging to hit every section of that unit once the game starts and they split.



#2
toaae

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I don't think it was FAQ'd because I think their intention is as obvious as can be: After deployment, artillery units are split into multiple units, and as such, each counts as kill points or victory points in BGNT, or whatever. They did have to FAQ our artillery because it was very poorly written (especially compared to other factions' artillery), but now it is obvious that each gun and each group of grot gunners are each their own unit after deployment.

Now, for if I think that is fair, no, I do not. But that is the way it works, at least for the base six Eternal War missions. Personally, I've been playing in a league that plays the Maelstrom missions, so the sheer number of units my one unit of three guns makes after deployment hasn't been a concern. If your group only plays Eternal War, I'd discuss it with them. House rules like the ITC's killpoints = power level would work for the KP mission, and maybe just don't count the gunners for the purposes of 'Big Guns Never Tire'.



#3
greggles

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Many tournaments have changed the kill point missions to PL points.

 

ie, if you kill something worth 2 PL, you get 2 kill points.  If you kill something that is PL 18, you get 18 points.  Helps solve the issue of the weaker units giving just as many points as the big nasty stuff.

 

Otherwise someone brings a knight list and auto wins any kill point mission.


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#4
killercroc

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I don't think it was FAQ'd because I think their intention is as obvious as can be: After deployment, artillery units are split into multiple units, and as such, each counts as kill points or victory points in BGNT, or whatever. They did have to FAQ our artillery because it was very poorly written (especially compared to other factions' artillery), but now it is obvious that each gun and each group of grot gunners are each their own unit after deployment.

Now, for if I think that is fair, no, I do not. But that is the way it works, at least for the base six Eternal War missions. Personally, I've been playing in a league that plays the Maelstrom missions, so the sheer number of units my one unit of three guns makes after deployment hasn't been a concern. If your group only plays Eternal War, I'd discuss it with them. House rules like the ITC's killpoints = power level would work for the KP mission, and maybe just don't count the gunners for the purposes of 'Big Guns Never Tire'.

 

The weird thing is they didn't FAQ all the artillery the same. The biovore (living artillery) cannot fire overwatch but a Thunderfire cannon can makes no sense. I liked it before when Artillery all shared a core set of rules so you always know what to expect for an artillery, this new form of every single artillery has it's own stats and special rules/treatment is oddly complicated for a game trying to uncomplicate things.

Though that does make sense, just talk you your opponent before hand, really the most reasonable thing to do. We very rarely play Maelstrom missions so KP = PL will probably be the safest bet.
 

Many tournaments have changed the kill point missions to PL points.

 

ie, if you kill something worth 2 PL, you get 2 kill points.  If you kill something that is PL 18, you get 18 points.  Helps solve the issue of the weaker units giving just as many points as the big nasty stuff.

 

Otherwise someone brings a knight list and auto wins any kill point mission.

That's a pretty solid way of doing it to balance out the difference between units and kill points. Let's face it, the fact that a Trukk is the same kill points as a Stompa is a little silly.


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#5
Dim_Reapa

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Many tournaments have changed the kill point missions to PL points.
 
ie, if you kill something worth 2 PL, you get 2 kill points.  If you kill something that is PL 18, you get 18 points.  Helps solve the issue of the weaker units giving just as many points as the big nasty stuff.
 
Otherwise someone brings a knight list and auto wins any kill point mission.

Yeah, I'm really surprised they didn't use Power Level like this from the start. It's like VPs from 2nd Ed but much more nuanced. It's not perfect, but it gives armies with lots of units a chance. I find that GW's rules penalise armies with lots of cheap units through quirks like this a little too often. AoS' Priority system leaps to mind...
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#6
killercroc

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Yeah, I'm really surprised they didn't use Power Level like this from the start. It's like VPs from 2nd Ed but much more nuanced. It's not perfect, but it gives armies with lots of units a chance. I find that GW's rules penalise armies with lots of cheap units through quirks like this a little too often. AoS' Priority system leaps to mind...

From kill point to whoever has the smaller army goes first, yeah the new edition is not friendly to quite a few armies, mostly Orks, Nids, Daemons, and Guard come to mind. I am glad they did the chapter approved where you roll off to see who goes first, but the person who set up first get's a +1. But really in a game of elite armies versus horde armies who thought it was a good idea to make a rule that the person who can place first goes first? Not to mention those elite armies tend to have a lot of firepower.



#7
warhead01

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Many tournaments have changed the kill point missions to PL points.

 

ie, if you kill something worth 2 PL, you get 2 kill points.  If you kill something that is PL 18, you get 18 points.  Helps solve the issue of the weaker units giving just as many points as the big nasty stuff.

 

Otherwise someone brings a knight list and auto wins any kill point mission.

I'm wondering how that's going over? any complaints about armies of equal points coming up as different Power Levels? 


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#8
toaae

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I'm wondering how that's going over? any complaints about armies of equal points coming up as different Power Levels? 

 

Still a massive improvement over regular Killpoints. In my last two games in my league, I've played armies of 9 KP and 28 KP, while my list is 22 KP. Quite a swing there. In Power level, those same three lists are 100, 105, and 116, respectively. A much smaller range.


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#9
Dim_Reapa

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I think 8th is a case in point for still needing unit types rules in the game. Artillery just doesn't work with a paragraph or two per unit bogging down army list sections. I don't think we need a return to the convoluted amount of information and features in previous editions, but a few noted exceptions in bullet points would only add a page to the rules and save a lot of time when playing.

 

I'm not sure the whole gun/crew separate units thing was really needed. Granted with targeting being non-restrictive, it doesn't cause many problems. I've been reticent to run my Rebels this edition because of how many VPs my many Big/Mek Gun units would give away. I'm not sure the firepower they provide is apt compensation, excepting Lobbas that, in theory, you can keep out of sight.


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