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why the last two codecs have me both worried and excited!

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13 replies to this topic

#1
Skumdreg

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So we now have the death guard and Ad mech codex out! However, there is something worrying about them.... For one Death guard are now very powerful (even more than they were before!) we big point reductions, new units and special rules! Now I honestly don't want to fight them as I know the battle will be heavily one sided. But, at the same time, the amount of effort put into their codex really makes me hopeful for Orks (which might not be coming out for a while). Maybe we will get big point reductions, new special rules and strategies (or maybe even some new units?). However, then the Ad Mech codex came out... Honestly, it's a pretty thin codex and not a lot changed. A few point reductions here and there but I know a lot of people in the Ad Mech faction looking at Death Guard and really upset their codex is nowhere near as good or changed. (as one player pointed out. Errors the FAQ had fixed were now back in the codex!?!? Which really illustrates how much GW cared about that codex... Also might hint they had the codex ready and printed at same time as index but this might be tin'ed talk).  Now I feel like this might happen to Orks... What if GW just pumps it out with nothing really special and just says "Here you go... Shootas now cost 1pts more and we change the strength of this one unit nobody used anyway... have fun!". What do you guys think?



#2
lachlin

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Don't hold your breath I don't think orks were ever planned by GW to be a top tier tournament winning army.
Da footure iz green!

#3
Skumdreg

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Don't hold your breath I don't think orks were ever planned by GW to be a top tier tournament winning army.

I don't mind losing.... I'm used to it from 7th ed. But I wouldn't mind having fun! Sometimes a close game is way more fun for both players than someone steamrolling you.


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#4
PhillyT

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Death guard are powerful but not overly so. Try building some lists, it's insane how quickly they run out of points. They have some really cool abilities, but I think it's a great example of a unique codex without being over powered.

#5
killercroc

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I think when it comes to Death guard the army will rely on a lot of optimization to do well. They have a lot of powerful characters that make the squads really good, which is dangerous as they're already pretty good. T5 beakies with a 5+ FnP that can fire rapid fire guns at 18" instead of 12, plus move and fire heavy weapons & run and fire assault weapons with no penalty. For an army that's suppose to be slow on the advance they made them really fast. The thing I think is powerful is the new plague mortar, it's the same stats as a Leman Russ but with a mortar battlecannon and better version of a heavy bolter and 2 heavy flamers, the kicker is it's 150 points and a Russ is 200... I don't know how that's balanced at all.

I haven't looked at the Ad Mech codex but my guess is that GW either pushed Death Guard to be a new hit seller (with them being half the army in the new box set it's a safe bet) or the person in charge of the codex just really liked them and might have let his bias go too far. I think the new Ad Mech is everything in one book instead of 3 which is good for them, but those FAQ errors still being in the book is worrisome, it shows complete lack of responsibility on GW's part. 

As for us beating the new Death Guard, I gave it some thought and anything that is S6 or higher with at least -1 AP and 2 damage will be really good. The high strength means wounding on a 3+ and ignoring their increased toughness, -1 save to cut back on their normal save to at least a 50/50 chance of wounding or to ignore any cover they're in, and at least 2 damage to reduce the chance of success on their disgustingly resilient. 

 

So we'll want to look at things like: Lootas, Tankbustas, Zzap gun batteries, Big choppas, 4 Klaw dreads, Kanz. These units will be the most effective against Death Guard as they ignore almost every defensive boost the army gets. Now the idea is they're paying a premium for all that special stuff so if we can field units that ignore that it's basically a waste of points for the Death Guard player. My thoughts at least. 



#6
PhillyT

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As is always the case, Flash Gitz are the answer to dealing with elites.  Skorchas will do good damage as well.

 

The biggest challenge for orks will be in melee.  There are lots and lots of flamer style weapons in the army, making a charge a challenge unless you pile a vehicle in first.  Once in, Death Guard don't have the numbers to really compete.

 

Some counter points to the strengths people are seeing:

 

1.  Death Guard need command points to excel.  At 19 points for a plague beakie, they won't have many options to get those battalions.  They will fill out troop slots with some zombies, but it will still eat a sizable number of points.

 

2.  They can run and shoot rapid fire at a longer range, but most units doing so will still be peppering a few S4 shots out with little real effect.  Even a 20 man squad will only average 9 wounds on an ork boy unit if its in rapid fire range with its bolters.  Out of a unit that will likely run nearly 450 points!  If they are running, the heavies can't fire.

 

3.  The army is not fast in any real meaningful way.  Base 5 movement for plague Beakies mean that even if you are running they will only average 8-9" while eating a penalty to shoot.  Terminators are movement 4.  After they deep strike you are going to be able to do whatever you want to them.

 

4.  Those characters end up eating into point allotments.  The scariest thing in their army, Mortarion, will actually be hard to field in a list that can win effectively.  He is 470 points, but is a lord of war.  That means they will need to find space for two other HQ, at a minimum cost of 130 points (if you are going after the minimum costed Tally men and took two for whatever reason).  So you have a 600 point investment off the top.  Add the required troop choices, even the most minimally competitive, and you are up around 1100-1200.  Having said all that, the 6 command point list will still be tough to deal with since Mortarion is VERY hard for orks to deal with currently.  You need lots of laser cannons to take something like him out.  We don't have those.


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#7
Orkimedez

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I am just following the doctrines for the AM...and holy cow! On top the leman russ (can shot twice if moved half the M + a rumored drop in points).

#8
Skumdreg

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Okay.. after reading imperial gaurd (who already got a huge buff this edition in the index) they better freaking not let us down with the orks!
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#9
Itinerate Ork

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I saw two Guard armies last night and they look pretty strong from the limited sample size. To the comment above about Leman Russ cost, they can be enhanced with orders, including one which lets a Punisher cannon fire twice with no penalty for moving - I was on the receiving end of this with Chaos and was losing a unit in power armor per turn. Another player faced Guard with foot slogging orks and was shot off the table in two turns. I didn't see much of the game beyond set up but they are clearly packing plenty of firepower and extra flexibility with the new orders in their codex.

 

All that said, I'm not sure what, if anything, it means for Orks. I'm not getting my hopes up, although 8th is already more Ork-friendly than 6th or 7th were (admittedly not saying much here).



#10
Skumdreg

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It's ironic because in lore you could have 50 Beakies and they would beat an entire planet into submission... 



#11
PhillyT

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As we said before, Death Guard are proving to be fun but so expensive that they do what they are meant to - take a beating while not really being able to dish out enough damage to wipe the enemy, resulting in a war of attrition for both sides.

 

Meanwhile, the 'umie army is looking to be very flexible while needing to rely on those big numbers to really get the job done.

 

Neither is so out of balance to really create a problem in the meta.  So far, only the Grey Knights are proving to be bland and uncompetitive but thats just from my personal experience.  Maybe they are killing it in other metas?



#12
Dim_Reapa

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I think Grey Knights won some tournament of note in the UK recently. My local staffer mentioned it so I don't have details.

#13
PhillyT

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Now thats interesting.  I suppose I'll need to look more closely.  My local player has limited options so his lists have a same same appearance.



#14
Skumdreg

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I watched a grey night vs 'umie game and 1 squad demolished their heavy weapons team. In addition, one of their mortal wound ability does like a lot of mortal wound to everything in 3" of an enemy or something so every hq was fried turn 2 and the whole army crumbled under the weight of moral.