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orks and 5+bs

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#41
urluck

urluck

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My opinion on this matter overall.

 

My personal experience is that it sucks when modifers stop you from shooting, I hated-hated the game when I first ran into that, but I can't help but feel the currently list telegraphs a close combat army very strongly. On a superficial level, if you take shooty orkz you are building the army around its worst characteristic. The reason why we did that is previous editions was because of how our rules worked and codex creep. We were not especially effective in close combat, while the shoota gave us more options, and at one stage was something of a USP.  Now there's a reasonable chance of boyz striking first, S4, Da Jump, the Waagh Banner, Warbosses, Ghazzy, and a number of buffs explcitly about close combat. Orkz are a close combat army again. Everything else is support, or covering fire.

 

That said, there are still legit reasons to take shooty orkz, just not ones that make them the default choice. Shoota boyz fire as effectively in overwatch as as beakies, and no modifiers apply there, unless I've missed a FAQ. If you are up against meatsheilds, the dakka helps more than the choppy. Grot artillery is very useful, and cheap. Lootas, Tankhunters and Gitz do their job well, if suffering from being really obvious targets.

 

 

TLDR: Choppy first, shooty 3rd.


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#42
Skumdreg

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My opinion on this matter overall.

 

My personal experience is that it sucks when modifers stop you from shooting, I hated-hated the game when I first ran into that, but I can't help but feel the currently list telegraphs a close combat army very strongly. On a superficial level, if you take shooty orkz you are building the army around its worst characteristic. The reason why we did that is previous editions was because of how our rules worked and codex creep. We were not especially effective in close combat, while the shoota gave us more options, and at one stage was something of a USP.  Now there's a reasonable chance of boyz striking first, S4, Da Jump, the Waagh Banner, Warbosses, Ghazzy, and a number of buffs explcitly about close combat. Orkz are a close combat army again. Everything else is support, or covering fire.

 

That said, there are still legit reasons to take shooty orkz, just not ones that make them the default choice. Shoota boyz fire as effectively in overwatch as as beakies, and no modifiers apply there, unless I've missed a FAQ. If you are up against meatsheilds, the dakka helps more than the choppy. Grot artillery is very useful, and cheap. Lootas, Tankhunters and Gitz do their job well, if suffering from being really obvious targets.

 

 

TLDR: Choppy first, shooty 3rd.

I agree. I feel like they want us to buy hordes of 30 ork slugga boyz when I'd love a few lootas in my army. But why wast my money on something I know won't help me? I really dislike this limitation and feel it breaks the point of the game (having a army that fits and suits you) and just pushes for the same style of armies across the board. 


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#43
Moe Dakka

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My opinion on this matter overall.

 

My personal experience is that it sucks when modifers stop you from shooting, I hated-hated the game when I first ran into that, but I can't help but feel the currently list telegraphs a close combat army very strongly. On a superficial level, if you take shooty orkz you are building the army around its worst characteristic. The reason why we did that is previous editions was because of how our rules worked and codex creep. We were not especially effective in close combat, while the shoota gave us more options, and at one stage was something of a USP.  Now there's a reasonable chance of boyz striking first, S4, Da Jump, the Waagh Banner, Warbosses, Ghazzy, and a number of buffs explcitly about close combat. Orkz are a close combat army again. Everything else is support, or covering fire.

 

That said, there are still legit reasons to take shooty orkz, just not ones that make them the default choice. Shoota boyz fire as effectively in overwatch as as beakies, and no modifiers apply there, unless I've missed a FAQ. If you are up against meatsheilds, the dakka helps more than the choppy. Grot artillery is very useful, and cheap. Lootas, Tankhunters and Gitz do their job well, if suffering from being really obvious targets.

 

 

TLDR: Choppy first, shooty 3rd.

 

 

Watched this last night:

 

All the horrors of 7th revisited.  Boyz go second, get blasted by an enemy who cleverly doesn't move.  There is an odd dynamic happening now; I often see Orks huddling around buffs, which hamstrings the CC army's best tool...speed.  Sure, there are distraction throw-aways, but I'm leaning towards ignoring buffs and focusing on a list/strategy that serves to disrupt the enemy's synergies.   Bodies work, but without harassing support, it's a shooting gallery.   LOS blocking terrain can help, but not with huge mobs.  With this in mind, the idea of multiple ardcase wagonz full of whatever seems plausible.  Four wagonz as the entire deployment means ofttimes going first, placing units in position for turn two shenanigans.  These drops could operate individually, or in conjunction w each other, and soak up a lot of enemy first turn firepower.



#44
warhead01

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The Ork player seems to have forgotten hit ramshackle roll for the war trukk.  I stopped watching on Ork turn one. I'll watch a little more later.

That beakie army ...haha Beakies. :P  :lol  

 

I huddle some units around my Pain boy and my KFF for the first turn after that it's been a little less important. 

I'm not sure we've mentioned the idea of changing the WAAAGH banner Nob to allow for either +1 to hit, reroll failed hits or +1 attack from shooting. He's 70 points right now I think he'd still be a good choice at 70-80, maybe as much as 90 points for buffing shooting. It'd be as fair as things other armies have and we'd pay points for it. You can plop him next to your lootas and artillery and there we are. I would hope that it's either one Banner Nob doing one of 4 things, the three new ones I mentioned or what he already does.) Or just another one just to buff shooting. Whatever. 

I'm not a fan of the old 7's to hit really you have to work really hard to get there and I feel it should be a game rule not a faction rule. ( don't want it taking up space for rules and abilities on y data sheets. ;)  )


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#45
Dim_Reapa

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I agree. I feel like they want us to buy hordes of 30 ork slugga boyz when I'd love a few lootas in my army. But why wast my money on something I know won't help me? I really dislike this limitation and feel it breaks the point of the game (having a army that fits and suits you) and just pushes for the same style of armies across the board.


This sums up my frustrations perfectly. I doubt no one would deny that it's difficult to balance so many disparate elements, but things aren't as close as I'd like. I have more of a hobby mojo than I did under 7th though, so there's that I suppose.

#46
killercroc

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@Moe Dakka Just watching the first bit of the video that shows what I think was done wrong with cover. a +1 to the save is basically useless for us, before everyone got a 4+ but now that it's +1 the orks get a 5+ and the Beakies get a 2+. Seems like cover benefits Beakies much more than it does Orks. That and moving and firing heavy weapons. GW did this sort of thing that "hey everyone gets to use these new rules" but they benefit Beakies way more than any other army... so are the rules really "balanced" if one army can make much more use out of the rules as another army can? Personally I don't think so.

As for the Ork players list footslogging is even worse due to shotting getting better so he really should have just gone with Trukk boyz and Battlewagons. But that's just how I like to play, rather things roll up in an armored shell than hope after 3 turns of running across the battlefield I have any models left to actually hit with. Hooray for Da Orkz!

So as to the point that Orks are now better at combat and should focus on that, well yes. However shooting is still powerful enough to cut you down anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 by the time you get there that unless you get good rolls I don't think you'll have the models to actually win in CC. Also CC is good for both sides cause while in combat both units swing, but during shooting only one army shoots. So they get the shooting phase then when you finally get into combat they get to attack there too so it makes armies that can shoot and do combat (Basically beakies) still be really powerful.

All I can do is hope for a codex to come out that makes me want to play my Orks like Orks. I read the Deathguard codex and that thing is dripping with fluffy and powerful units... like  GW did not hold back with how good they made that army. I can only hope to Gork n' Mork they treat ours the same way.



#47
urluck

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All the horrors of 7th revisited.  Boyz go second, get blasted by an enemy who cleverly doesn't move.  There is an odd dynamic happening now; I often see Orks huddling around buffs, which hamstrings the CC army's best tool...speed.  Sure, there are distraction throw-aways, but I'm leaning towards ignoring buffs and focusing on a list/strategy that serves to disrupt the enemy's synergies.   Bodies work, but without harassing support, it's a shooting gallery.   LOS blocking terrain can help, but not with huge mobs.  With this in mind, the idea of multiple ardcase wagonz full of whatever seems plausible.  Four wagonz as the entire deployment means ofttimes going first, placing units in position for turn two shenanigans.  These drops could operate individually, or in conjunction w each other, and soak up a lot of enemy first turn firepower.

 

 

I've not watched the video in question, but I'm agreeing with your conclusions. When I suggest close combat, that does not automatically mean footslogging hordes, and nothing else.  Maybe I should have worded that earlier post differently. We still need some covering fire, and we still need to get in their faces faces as quick as possible. How we acheive that as players is open to debate, we have to accept that shooting is not Plan A, and that's what I was trying to say.

 

 

So as to the point that Orks are now better at combat and should focus on that, well yes. However shooting is still powerful enough to cut you down anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 by the time you get there that unless you get good rolls I don't think you'll have the models to actually win in CC. Also CC is good for both sides cause while in combat both units swing, but during shooting only one army shoots. So they get the shooting phase then when you finally get into combat they get to attack there too so it makes armies that can shoot and do combat (Basically beakies) still be really powerful.

 

Might I suggest the 4 units we have that can outflank independant of the weirdboy? You either split their fire, or get into close combat quickly.


Unobtainium Rivits. my blog and your place for Orks, Transformers, and some other stuff.


#48
Skumdreg

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@Moe Dakka Just watching the first bit of the video that shows what I think was done wrong with cover. a +1 to the save is basically useless for us, before everyone got a 4+ but now that it's +1 the orks get a 5+ and the Beakies get a 2+. Seems like cover benefits Beakies much more than it does Orks. That and moving and firing heavy weapons. GW did this sort of thing that "hey everyone gets to use these new rules" but they benefit Beakies way more than any other army... so are the rules really "balanced" if one army can make much more use out of the rules as another army can? Personally I don't think so.
 

This is what I said throughout the entire blog posts before 8th ed even came out! I kept yelling that it was unfair as every general rule benefited one faction more than the others but everyone yelled at me to shut up... :( (not on this forums)


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#49
PhillyT

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I run a couple thirty man units of shoota boyz then drop in the more elite options. Flash gitz are incredible so far but need a kff or battlewagon to truly excel. But excel they do.

#50
urluck

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This is what I said throughout the entire blog posts before 8th ed even came out! I kept yelling that it was unfair as every general rule benefited one faction more than the others but everyone yelled at me to shut up... :( (not on this forums)

 

Its a 16.6% improvement on the armour save, the difference is that it benefits beakies at all times rather than just with anti-tank/plasma as it was in previous editions, whereas orks get their save doubled to a modest 33ish%. Cover does not however count in close combat, or with Skorchas, which is the traditional ork response to such things.

 

Beakies do find it easier to get cover with smaller squad sizes, although that is not inherent to them.


Unobtainium Rivits. my blog and your place for Orks, Transformers, and some other stuff.


#51
killercroc

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Might I suggest the 4 units we have that can outflank independant of the weirdboy? You either split their fire, or get into close combat quickly.

I'm aware that we have a few fast and sneaky units, it's just acquiring enough of them to make use is the issue. So for example Stormboyz, they're more than twice as fast as a boy and only 2 points more which is awesome. The issue lies with them being $25 for 5 models, so a unit of 30 Boyz is $90 and 180 points, a unit of 30 Stormboyz is $150 and 240 points. An extra $60 per squad is a lot to throw down, especially which I already have around 300+ boyz, I'd rather that the game was more usable for those 300 boyz than having to try and get the new unit that's better because it finally has good rules. Kommandos are easy enough to convert and I got 10 of those guys, still need to make more and the process is difficult and I am running out of backpacks and spare stikkbombz and random sneaky bitz. But I do get your point, if you hit the opponent from 3 directions at once it's much easier for them to blast you down. 

 

This is what I said throughout the entire blog posts before 8th ed even came out! I kept yelling that it was unfair as every general rule benefited one faction more than the others but everyone yelled at me to shut up... :( (not on this forums)

Yeah my guess is those players benefit from the rules  :yes  See the way I look at it, look at paintball. Everyone follows the same rules but the dudes with the nice camo and higher grade guns are going to do much better than you are, but it's totally fair cause everyone follows the same rules... right guys? GW tried to balance it but I feel they forgot that the armies aren't balanced, so having blanket rules that aren't situational will work much better for others. I wish they wen't back to ruins being a 4+ cover save. It's good for armies that have no armor, and it's even good for beakies cause I swear those players bitch so much about plasma killing them too easily but that's what the ruins are for!

 

I run a couple thirty man units of shoota boyz then drop in the more elite options. Flash gitz are incredible so far but need a kff or battlewagon to truly excel. But excel they do.

That's what I do too honestly, mix some units of shoota boys with choppa boys. But it still seems the whole, battlewagon with al big shootas full of shoota boys is a viable option. I just need to get more games in to really nail down what is best for me. Now I just wish I bought more trukks back in the day... thaey're actually somewhat useful now (though they're a bit underpowered cause they're not fast or tough but cost the same as a Rhino... ) I've been looking at getting some flash gitz, I have the Gud Kaptain (not painted yet) and he's so much better than the last codex but I need to start taking him. He plus a unit of 10 Flashgitz will cause lots of dakka goodness! Too bad they don't work inside a Trukk, so a KFF mek will be necessary to keep them alive. Come on GW, just give them back the damn 4+ already! You even modeled them with tons of armor!



#52
Moe Dakka

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I've not watched the video in question, but I'm agreeing with your conclusions. When I suggest close combat, that does not automatically mean footslogging hordes, and nothing else.  Maybe I should have worded that earlier post differently. We still need some covering fire, and we still need to get in their faces faces as quick as possible. How we acheive that as players is open to debate, we have to accept that shooting is not Plan A, and that's what I was trying to say.

 

 

I actually was agreeing with you.  I wouldn't bother watching the video; it's painful.

The intent of my post was to to try to counter some of the emerging (and 7th) meta.  Gunlines are difficult for orks, especially when an opponent often chooses gunlines when facing orks.  Another tube posted recently had an aggressive panzee army against orks; much better.  Even still, the ork player huddled his army in the middle to exploit buffs.  It's usually that, or a shit-ton of boyz filling the deployment zone. Going first is a big deal, to minimize drops transports are both durable and tactically flexible.  The question remains whether 20 boyz in a BW are better than 50 on foot.  Spamming BWs means fewer drops, probably going first.  BWs mitigate small arms fire initially, and un-buffed deployment can lead to the enemy losing it's own synergies, and from what I've encountered, most players rely on buffs. 


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#53
urluck

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I'm aware that we have a few fast and sneaky units, it's just acquiring enough of them to make use is the issue. So for example Stormboyz, they're more than twice as fast as a boy and only 2 points more which is awesome. The issue lies with them being $25 for 5 models, so a unit of 30 Boyz is $90 and 180 points, a unit of 30 Stormboyz is $150 and 240 points. An extra $60 per squad is a lot to throw down, especially which I already have around 300+ boyz, I'd rather that the game was more usable for those 300 boyz than having to try and get the new unit that's better because it finally has good rules. Kommandos are easy enough to convert and I got 10 of those guys, still need to make more and the process is difficult and I am running out of backpacks and spare stikkbombz and random sneaky bitz. But I do get your point, if you hit the opponent from 3 directions at once it's much easier for them to blast you down.

 

I can't argue with the £$ issue, so I won't, but another thought occurs. If you have 300+ boyz and a wish they were more effective in game, why not just Da Jump them on turn 1? Obviously not all, but some. They don't even have to be choppa boyz, in fact shootas make a lot of sense as you'd have to roll well to charge.

 

 

I actually was agreeing with you.  I wouldn't bother watching the video; it's painful.

The intent of my post was to to try to counter some of the emerging (and 7th) meta.  Gunlines are difficult for orks, especially when an opponent often chooses gunlines when facing orks.  Another tube posted recently had an aggressive panzee army against orks; much better.  Even still, the ork player huddled his army in the middle to exploit buffs.  It's usually that, or a shit-ton of boyz filling the deployment zone. Going first is a big deal, to minimize drops transports are both durable and tactically flexible.  The question remains whether 20 boyz in a BW are better than 50 on foot.  Spamming BWs means fewer drops, probably going first.  BWs mitigate small arms fire initially, and un-buffed deployment can lead to the enemy losing it's own synergies, and from what I've encountered, most players rely on buffs. 

 

My apologies sir, I misunderstood. I think we are on the same page re: the ork meta.


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#54
PhillyT

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Killercroc: I love trukks this edition. I have four and they do very well.

#55
killercroc

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I can't argue with the £$ issue, so I won't, but another thought occurs. If you have 300+ boyz and a wish they were more effective in game, why not just Da Jump them on turn 1? Obviously not all, but some. They don't even have to be choppa boyz, in fact shootas make a lot of sense as you'd have to roll well to charge.

Da jump is an option for sure, but only getting to attempt it once a turn is the more difficult part. I don't like that rule where you can only attempt a power once per turn, I get how it's there to balance out powers but then it also makes it so taking psykers is like a negative, especial for psyker heavy armies... hope you like smite! I guess I could do my normal Heavy tank army with boyz and keep a unit or two in my deployment to jump them? Or I could use some normal boyz as "counts as" kommandos to see how one or two units of those guys do. There are options for sure but I don't want to rely  on my games to be gimmicky to do well. a nice core with a few extras like that would be a nice balance. 

 

Killercroc: I love trukks this edition. I have four and they do very well.

I might look into Trukks then, I have a somewhat close to done conversion of a Trukk to a warkopta and another into more mek gunz, but Trukks are affordable enough as is. That and they are very very orky  :yes



#56
PhillyT

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Much less expensive that wagons. Not great though if your goal is to place high cost units inside and shoot out of them.

#57
Skumdreg

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Much less expensive that wagons. Not great though if your goal is to place high cost units inside and shoot out of them.

I've been thinking about using a wagon and a trukk. A trukk to hold my HQ in and 8 burna boyz and a wagon to hold 20 shoota boyz in. Turn 1 I'll be safe of I don't get that turn, if not I drive them up the entire field and shoot. Turn 2 I jump out, all my elites, warboss, boyz are there ready to shoot and charge while the battle wagon could even charge the enemy to absorb some of that over watch. In the back i could still have a weird boy with like 2 30 man squads to zap across the field or capture objectives.  

 

Seriously though, what is wrong with the other forums?!? I see a thread saying tin'eads need to be more powerful and suggest giving them a 3+ save and 4+ reanimation at base and everyone is okay with that... Someone just suggests giving some ork vehicles a 4+BS and everyone says that's too OP?! (not here, on other forums) Do the other factions just say that because they're scared we might actually win for once.... People say orks shouldn't be a shooting army (exact quote) and I can't understand where they get that idea from?!? ORKS HAVE A FREAKING WORD FOR LOTS OF SHOOTING!!!!!! They don't say dakka to mean they like hitting things with sticks!!! 


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#58
killercroc

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Seriously though, what is wrong with the other forums?!? I see a thread saying tin'eads need to be more powerful and suggest giving them a 3+ save and 4+ reanimation at base and everyone is okay with that... Someone just suggests giving some ork vehicles a 4+BS and everyone says that's too OP?! (not here, on other forums) Do the other factions just say that because they're scared we might actually win for once.... People say orks shouldn't be a shooting army (exact quote) and I can't understand where they get that idea from?!? ORKS HAVE A FREAKING WORD FOR LOTS OF SHOOTING!!!!!! They don't say dakka to mean they like hitting things with sticks!!! 

If no one else will say it I will. It's because those people are idiots that know nothing about actual game balance. If they think a 3+ then a 4+ every turn til you come back in normal but BS 4+ on an army that pays the same points for it's weaponry as guard (a BS 4+ army) is broken they should never suggest any rules change because they show about as much brains as the Bull Grox that's run into a boulder more than a few times. 

See the problem is Orks use to be shooty, but since they've dropped the points for everything (except orks) it's impossible to be shooty because your numbers. For example, beakies use to be 16 points and now they're 13, so that's a 19% reduction in cost. Boyz on the other hand are still 6 points, so beakies are going down in points be not us. Honestly as far as I can tell nothing in the new book got cheaper for us but lots got more expensive so... that's a bit odd. So how can we possibly do a fluffy big dakka army when now we only outnumber the elite army at 2:1 instead of 3:1? You cannot be shooty if your opponent is fielding as many if not more models than you are (Beakies and humies) 


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#59
toaae

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Seriously though, what is wrong with the other forums?!? I see a thread saying tin'eads need to be more powerful and suggest giving them a 3+ save and 4+ reanimation at base and everyone is okay with that... Someone just suggests giving some ork vehicles a 4+BS and everyone says that's too OP?! (not here, on other forums) Do the other factions just say that because they're scared we might actually win for once.... People say orks shouldn't be a shooting army (exact quote) and I can't understand where they get that idea from?!? ORKS HAVE A FREAKING WORD FOR LOTS OF SHOOTING!!!!!! They don't say dakka to mean they like hitting things with sticks!!! 

 

Because other people that play other armies have, just like us, a bias.


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#60
PhillyT

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I don't agree that BS isn't taken into account when calculating points.  I think lootas are priced oddly because they CAN shoot 3 times, though likely won't.  Their current points still reflect the philosophy that you pay for every heavy regardless of how durable the model carrying it is.  Tankbustas are a bit undercosted considering the weapon they carry, so there isn't much consistency there.


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