Jump to content

Welcome to Da WAAAGH
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Remember when GW said...

- - - - -

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
78 replies to this topic

#21
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun
Bad business in their recent past. Already seeing a lot of pay to win and fixes to problems they themselves have caused. Sure, its partly business, but given that this rebrand and shafted CEO is a desperate admission of a severely failing one, I am yet to be convinced that their "best intentions" are anything other than a corporate rebrand. If GW is doing business as usual, that's a business that was failing because of poor customer relations and shifty practices.

For me, GW has a year. One year to prove they're worth taking seriously. So far the prognosis isn't good. 8th Ed is a pretty average game.

#22
PhillyT

PhillyT

    'Ard Boy

  • Boyz
  • 901 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz
What pay to win are you referring to.

As far as 8th goes, in my area of the US it's seeing an unprecedented resurgence. So far local shops have tripled or quadroupled sales in 4 months over what they made all of last year.

#23
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

After the rebrand. It's very early doors. GW can easily go back to being the source of ridicule it was under Kirby. But most of it appears pretty hollow corporate rebrand, and that's not much. The game is mostly getting praise for being better than 7th, and that's not even remotely an achievement.

As to pay to win, there are already pretty big inequalities in the game, and the usual powering up of poor sellers, nerfing of most good non-essential bestsellers, and the introduction of Primarchs, pretty much removing the point and pretense of balance (something they were claiming to have cracked) completely. It's the same old list meta shift nonsense, there's still units that were pretty obviously underpowered because they sold well (we obviously didn't get hit very hard because we utterly sucked in 7th).

Some things are too good (quantum shielding leaps to mind) and the core is pretty weak, tripping over its own feet just out of the door. The power balances between Codicies is already grossly in excess of Indices. Naturally, there's a possibility that once everyone has Codicies that balance may level out, but GW has failed at this in the past. A year will give enough Codicies to judge how well they've done. For me, their pricing algorithms for both points and power level are deeply flawed.

Regarding Greggles talk of "listening GW Designers", I'm taking that with a heavy dose of salt. The same was said by 7th Edition's writers, which shows how full of shit that company often is. Talk is cheap. I'll be watching this year unfold with very low expectations.

Also, Gulliman has 9 wounds. He can hide behind Beakies if he likes.

 

P.S. Adjusting points yearly only works as balance if everything else more or less works. But now we're stuck with two Core Rulesets that already need adjustment (AoS' Priority for instance is an utter joke that favours some factions over others but hasn't even been remotely tweaked in GH Mk.2) and many rules in units that can sometimes cause problems that merely shifting points wont solve. It's a step up from previously, but any attempt at rules writing in any form of intelligent or considerate way is an improvement over 7th, so let's not get too excited now, eh.



#24
greggles

greggles

    Skarboy

  • Boyz
  • 1,487 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Army Name:Trust in Rust

All i know is that the GW rules team is at tournaments.  They are not only watching, taking feedback, and interacting with the community, but playing in those tournaments as well.  (narrative style and kill all style!).  I already know (but can't say) there are a number of changes about to come out just from their experiences at nova.  They are listening and changing.  Just takes time.  



#25
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

I will believe it when I see it. I hope you're right, but frankly, my trust is evaporated at this point. If it doesn't find it's way to action, it doesn't count. I've just got no time for what GW says about itself.



#26
PhillyT

PhillyT

    'Ard Boy

  • Boyz
  • 901 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

Which codices are out of balance Dim?  We have all of the current codex represented in our group and none are out of step within our sample set.  Is there talk of one codex being well beyond the others out there?

 

Personally I think this system is the best edition I have played since I started in 1999.  The only real and significant issue that comes up for our group is the first turn problem.  It is quite difficult to overcome losing first turn.  It would require a fundamental shift in how the turn sequence is handled to overcome.



#27
greggles

greggles

    Skarboy

  • Boyz
  • 1,487 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Army Name:Trust in Rust

They changed first turn to be a roll off now.  (person who finishes deploying first gets a +1 to the roll).  Was in the chapter approved FAQ.  Might have also missed that all troops are obj sec as well.

https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-1/

 

Flyers also don't count towards items on the field (in terms of tabling), nor can they hold objectives.

 

Dim, I know you are the voice of reason and doomsayer...but you can actually go and talk to the rules writers now! In person! You can ask questions and get answers! It's like a whole new world out there.

 

There was a huge problem with "smite spam" at nova.  (30+ MW a turn) The rules writers were there.  You can be assured there is going to be a faq update released soon that addresses it.  See problem, observe problem, listen to suggestions and complaints, fix problem.



#28
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

Let's face it, 8th being better than 5th, 6th, and 7th is not a challenge. Not remotely. 5th was an exploitable mess, 6th was a colossal fuckup that had Ward's hand all over it, and 7th Edition was a poorly done patch job done by a bunch of writers that should all have been fired. And indeed, it looks like they were.

 

8th Edition is okay, and in terms of 40k for a decade, yes that's better than it's been in a long time, but that really isn't saying much. 40k hasn't been a good game in a very, very long time. And it still isn't one. 8th Edition is average at best. I was going to mention the deploys first goes first nonsense (still yet to be addressed in AoS where it fucks up the game even more), but the core rules themselves are not up to much. The game is set up for shenanigans to come into it. It will be so, so easy for GW to make a newer faction better. I'm expecting a rape train when Deathguard lands, especially as they have reduced the points of those fucking Blight Drones.

 

I already said there was a big discrepancy between Index and Codex. Beakies, especially Primaris, are still playing the game on easy mode. Plasma spam is ludicrously effective. I'd say Tin'eads and Nids are the two nastiest at the moment, from the Indexes. We're still shit. That never changes. There are still obvious bad choices, and that doesn't suggest balance at all. At least in AoS, 99% of the units have a fucking point in a list. The oft stated "balance" isn't there, they just dialled down the obviousness of inequality, because they had to. When even 40k fans start noticing shit rules, you know you've reached the bottom. I expect Codicies to start ante-upping in earnest later on next year (as they usually do).

 

I will be completely astonished if the Codicies remain close. They have never, ever managed this, in any edition, and since they now joke about how shit they were (which is frankly an insult and something they shouldn't be doing) they're not filling me with confidence. Not when the Core Rules are written so poorly that the FAQ will rival war and peace in a year because the rules phrases are so clumsy. I think the only thing that's impressed me about 8th is the Scenarios in the various modes, particularly the ones in Narrative (the matched play ones are the worst, in my view). The rest of it is merely minor improvements, and that didn't take much. It didn't take people who know what they're doing, it only took people who slightly cared, because I will never ever believe any 7th Edition author cared at a single point, aside of the last two Codicies.

 

I'm not a voice of reason. I just have reason. Leave the voicing of reason to the Apologists. They're masturbating with both hands just because GW has one good year and now act like nothing was wrong. I require more convincing, because that company can eat shit for the 12 years it fucking sucked. This still isn't good enough for "the best in the world". Not even close. I hope the changes in Chapter Approved are drastic, because I am already bored of 8th Edition, and it hasn't even started.

 

As to talking to Rules Writers, I met Jervis during 7th. He tried to reassure me and I frankly just didn't buy it. As I said, talk is cheap. Actions speak the loudest. That's why I said I'm waiting a year to see if the game gets remotely better. I've been burned too often to be hopeful. It's nice that you two think this is great, I just point to the company Games Workshop, that produced 6th Ed, 7th Ed, Ward Codicies, Inquisitor, and War of the Ring and say, yeah, with a legacy like that I'd love to know where you get your hope from.

 

I don't share it. Are you seriously surprised? 


  • det, Stompagit and greggles like this

#29
Skumdreg

Skumdreg

    Shoota Boy

  • Boyz
  • 262 posts
  • Army Name:Dreg Boyz

Well this thread took a dark turn for the worse... XD I need to play devils advocate a little less. XD Although, the Beakies on easy mode is 100% true. Watched a game today of 2k points vs dark angels (who haven't even got a codex yet). He was playing a fluff friendly game (nowhere near competitive) having a company master and normal librarian, 1 squad of terminators, 1 rhino, 1 pred, 1 dev squad and the rest were normal tact Beakies units (so pretty accurate to what you might actually find on the field if 40k was real). Orks won but they had to work their ass off with a very competitive build while (I am not joking here) Dark Angels moved 1 unit the entire game! The rest stood still and didn't even attempt to do anything but shoot (apart from terminators who came in the back line to kill one unit for an extra point). In the end Orks had 15 points while Dark Angels had 14!!!! And Orks only really won due to sheer luck! 


  • Badfang Brassaxe likes this

#30
The Northern Ork

The Northern Ork

    Shoota Boy

  • Boyz
  • 276 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Deep darkness of the Warp
  • Army Name:The Dark Warpers

Well this is whining on a new level  here lol.. Your morkanaut good again??? It sucked in 7th.. like really really sucked, now its actually a viable choice in a list. Of course if you always bring the same list and your friend builds only hard counters to  it.. well.... Your doing it wrong, orks would change their tactics in that case. And GW never said anything.. they just said they were the new GW and were listening to the player base, that we would move through this as a community. And I've played many beakies and a regular plague beakie op player in the last weeks and I still have a positive win streak. But I always change up my lists a little.. keeps dem op players off guard... :P

 

And Dim.... do you even play anymore... have you played more then one game in the new edition, when was the last time you actually participated in a tournament, or a new army build, or bring ppl in the hobby... quit if you dont like it. Please, for your own mental sake, quit!

 

My two teef

 

TNO


"THIS IS WARPERS TERRITORY" Taken from last transmission from Battle Ship Emperor's Fist, Quadrant Delta Omega Three.

#31
Skumdreg

Skumdreg

    Shoota Boy

  • Boyz
  • 262 posts
  • Army Name:Dreg Boyz

Well this is whining on a new level  here lol.. Your morkanaut good again??? It sucked in 7th.. like really really sucked, now its actually a viable choice in a list. Of course if you always bring the same list and your friend builds only hard counters to  it.. well.... Your doing it wrong, orks would change their tactics in that case. And GW never said anything.. they just said they were the new GW and were listening to the player base, that we would move through this as a community. And I've played many beakies and a regular plague beakie op player in the last weeks and I still have a positive win streak. But I always change up my lists a little.. keeps dem op players off guard... :P

 

And Dim.... do you even play anymore... have you played more then one game in the new edition, when was the last time you actually participated in a tournament, or a new army build, or bring ppl in the hobby... quit if you dont like it. Please, for your own mental sake, quit!

 

My two teef

 

TNO

You know me... always trying to break the boundaries of whining. It's only one letter away from winning! But no seriously.. I do this to generate more discussion (like a parody). And what a hell of a discussion we have had!



#32
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun
Its okay, Northern Ork doesn't understand how forums work. I've played almost exclusively 40k with the odd Bloodbowl game since 8th hit. My experience has been very meh, some good, some shocking. I am already prepared to quit if I don't like it, and I certainly don't need help figuring that out, and especially not from you.

I am deeply disappointed with 40k. Enough good has happened that I'm prepared to wait a bit for signs of further improvement. I just don't expect it, because it's GW.

#33
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun
Also I played in a local tournament and placed in the top 10. Which reminds me: knight spam can suck an egg.

#34
Skumdreg

Skumdreg

    Shoota Boy

  • Boyz
  • 262 posts
  • Army Name:Dreg Boyz

I kind of get both sides of the argument. For me I think I am more on the negative end because I have spent (over time being an ebayers rather than GW I must have spent about £2-300 on 1k points of Dark Angles and about 3k points of orks) a lot of money on the game and for that much money (some people spend thousands on it) you would expect a bloody good experience! You could travel the world for what some people have spent on single models. XD



#35
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

I totally get the opposite side of the argument. Absolutely do, but 1) most people aren't prepared to stick their neck out to articulate the controversial shit I concentrate on; 2) a flat preference is placed for falling in line with GW's wishes, which is cute, as a fan sort of thing to do, but it ultimately serves only one source of interest and I've already mentioned them; 3) just because I don't spend ages upon ages gushing, doesn't mean that part of me isn't a fan; and finally 4) forums aren't happy places. Forums that try to concentrate on purely "happy" vibes can't keep it up. You can't enforce it, and why bother. This is what forums are for.



#36
Skumdreg

Skumdreg

    Shoota Boy

  • Boyz
  • 262 posts
  • Army Name:Dreg Boyz
Now now, let's cool down... what else can we whine about?

#37
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

Not even angry. As I said, this is what forums are for. I enjoy stuff like this. Forums are for exploring topics, both good and bad. If someone is not prepared to face that, there's always Pinterest. Just sayin'.

 

If people wanted to really piss fans off just to piss them off, it's far easier and more effective to bitch about the models and say they're shit. That's how you get results. Beating on GW's rules is like breaking a piñata with ten tonnes of C4.


  • Badfang Brassaxe likes this

#38
PhillyT

PhillyT

    'Ard Boy

  • Boyz
  • 901 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

I have a beakie army as large as my Ork army (9000 points).  It isn't that easy and I can beat most beakie armies with my orks and have (other than those times they deploy stormraven heavy lists - I don't run anti-vehicle in numbers enough to stop fliers like that in masses).  Beakies have the advantage in efficiency but orks can have more go wrong and still win.



#39
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,800 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun
In both cases I'd say that's still overly based on what list you take. Beakies aren't unbeatable, but they get so many outs and such that they can still be leaps and bounds better than you. Orks only have a handful of tricks you can play and lists that work. Anything with power armour will work well with anything else with power armour. With Orks, it's easy to waste points or PL on stuff that will never pay for itself because it's far too fragile and has so little that can support it.

#40
PhillyT

PhillyT

    'Ard Boy

  • Boyz
  • 901 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz
Beanies certainly are an easier army to field, but as they currently sit only hose stratagems put them above orks in a competitive sense. Once we get a book it won't be an issue.