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Suggesting balances to gw?

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#1
Skumdreg

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Firstly, this topic should more be named "suggesting balances to gw, talking about how unbalanced orks and other factions are, how we woukd balance them and feel free to vent"

I'm giving GW the benefit of the doubt and praying they're listening to us (like they said they are). I have a bunch of suggestions but have no idea where to send them, google hasn't helped and the gw website doesn't give me an email adress. So does anyone have a contact to suggest things for orks?

While we are on the topic, does anyone have any suggestions of their own if they thought gw was really listing (be realistic and civil please... it is gw after all ).

Mine would be make the Morkanaut cheaper or buff the damn thing!

Played a 2k point game with it yesterday and didn't use it once before I lost... I couldn't move him up too far because the deployment zone put me so far back and I needed his kff for my boyz. The shooting missed every single time (luckily I didn't get any 1s). And I felt like I had a waste of nearly 400 pts on my feild! It annoyed me as I played against tin'eads and it has become painfully obvious tin'eads are a well balanced and thought out race (not like orks). Every unit is efficient and has a place on the feild, each buffing each other and working like a network (the damn tesla guns hit on 2s and re rolled 1s with 5 and 6s adding 3 more shots to each 5/6!)

Also, i want to suggest taking the ability for jump pack units to attack aircraft in cc away. The tin'eads especially have a weird unit with the fly keyword that doesn't even look like it can fly... never mind all their slow hover vehicles with a guy hanging a bloody syth out the window can aparntly catch up with a supersonic dakka jet travelling hundreds of feet in the air...

#2
laughterofgods

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I think they are chiefly watching tournaments, their own facebook page, and a series of the more competitive minded podcasts.  Sadly, none of those podcasts really feature any Ork players.  That said, I do hope they pay attention to the faction based forums as well.



#3
AnthonyS

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I think they are chiefly watching tournaments, their own facebook page, and a series of the more competitive minded podcasts.  Sadly, none of those podcasts really feature any Ork players.  That said, I do hope they pay attention to the faction based forums as well.

 

I was thinking exactly this the other day - as they're making good changes based on observations and feedback from tournaments but, as you say, Orks don't feature here.

 

I believe they need to review Orks from the top down and work out what they want us to be and how we differ from other factions (looking at Tyranids).

 

Our shooting is the worst in the entire GW franchise and this is in a sci-fi themed game. They urgently need to review our shooting game as we have no ability to influence it (no buffs to hit, no buffs to wound, no buffs to number of shots), and 6's no longer always hit.  We are also facing a surge in factions/missions that impact shooting, how do we counter this?  We spend command points to make up for the inherent weakness in key units (lootaz) whilst our opponents use it to swing key rounds.  

 

We have no lascannans, no melta weapons and our plasma equivalent is more of a threat to us than the enemy.  

 

Our "big beasts" (Gork/Morkanaut) are jack of no trades, masters of none.  Seriously, what else in the game for over 300 points has a main weapon that will, on average, hit D6 times at S6, -1 AP and damage 1.  If you've not seen the Tyranid Exocrine, look at it and despair.

 

Our Dreadnaughts are similar points costs to Beakies, with same combat profile and worse shooting.

 

Our units of flamers hit D3 times.  Does any other flamer based weapon hit less that D6?

 

Personally, i'd like them to change orks to hitting in combat and shooting on 4+  I've always considered Orks a less disciplined, more aggressive human force, like they were in Fantasy.

 

Despite all the above, i am enjoying 8th and orks - but i don't play competitively nor do i feel i could with orks.



#4
Skumdreg

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Very interesting points there. I personally would lovr to shee orks (or at least everyone but boyz) hitting on a 4 up. However, I would love to keep the 3+ to cc.

I see orks as the green tide. Meaning they're the cheapest factions in 40k in terms of points but the more there are the more powerful they can become. That's why I love the idea of 30 orks giving you 30 leadership and 1 extra cc attack. However, I think it needs to go further in buffing everyone around them.

1. Ork Weirdboy. Remove the "for every 10 orks within 10" you plus one to your role" and replace it with "for every 20 orks within 12" you can do an additional psychic attack that phase. This makes your weirdboy genuinely feel more powerful the more orks there are.

2. ork shooting. Sure the more orks you have the more dakka you have but this is very unreliable for an army that actually has a word for lots of shooting! Therefore, I suggest we keep the 5+ and 4+ for shooting and cc but for every 10 orks in your unit (after the first 10) your BS and WS goes up by 1 to a maximum of 3+ or 4+ and this effects all nearby ork units within 6". This to me better emulates that everything is constantly firing and hitting stuff (we all know we have had games vs -1 to hit Beakies and no matter how much dakka it does nothing)

3. Morkanauts / gorkanauts. The KFF on the Morkanaut I feel should be special and should give a 4++ save to everyone in 9" as every other big guy in the other factions get a free invuln. With 30 blobs around it giving it a 3+ to WS that problem is fixed. Maybe throw in the same number of cc attacks for each and add some more wounds or something.

4. Waaaagh banner! I do like the waaagh banner but if I get a crap deployment and don't get turn 1 he can often be a waste of points. Therefore, if units get +1 through the many orks then the banner might act as like a vox caster. Meaning it takes the bonuses from every unit with 3-6" of him and boosts them into a bubble that can reach futher out. This makes him a higher priority target for assassination but makes him worth his points.

5. Warboss. I pretty much like the warboss although wish he had a 3+ save or a 5++. But wuth the suggested banner his waaagh would spread futher.

6. Big mek: His d3 heals can be annoying (why does gw think that orks are random so we have to make the dice random) just give him 3 wounds to heal on a 3+ or something.

7. Painboy: painboy is almost perfect apart from the mortal wound on a 1... no idea why, I know ork doks are supposed to be deadly or something but orks are pretty tough.

8. Mega armour nobs: does anybody even use these?

9. Deff dreads and killa kanz: these would be pretty much fixed withe the rules suggested above.

10. Most vehicles: these also would mostly be fixed with rules suggested above.

11. Deff kopptas: really gw? I know the rockets are powerful but when you hit on a 5 with only 2 shots there is no need to make them that expensive! I honestly think for me they have only ever hit twice... being behind the lines you're not going to get the bonuses so i suggest more dakka or cheaper guns.

12. 5"movement: because aparntly a genetically modified species built for war can run faster than a guy in huge metal power armour guy. I k ow we can advance but that's extremely random and annoying when trying to keep stuff like painboys i n distance. It just leads to stupid daisy chaining that looks dumb. I suggest for every 10 orks you plus 1 to move ment or plus 1 to the role to the advance for a max of 6".

The great thing about these changes is that it benefits everyone. Gw can sell lots of unsellable ork models, we can have a green tide! And it doesn't have to be footslog! 10 orks in every trukk with 20 in a battlewagon would all send out an aura that links up into a trukk wave. Even bikers in a link would all boost each other.

#5
toaae

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I don't think Orks need much, and look forward to what the codex brings. That said, I have a couple of thoughts:

 

1. A rule that limits Orkz to never needing worse than a 6+ to hit in shooting. The fact is, there are too many ways to get minus to-hits in the game and this quickly becomes a major issue with Orks, as we can only lose one point to hit before we just can't hit, period. Something like, "Wall of Lead: Such is the volume of Ork 'dakka' that even when they don't care to aim and their enemy attempts to hide, inevitably, some Ork shots hit home."

2. More reliable anti-air. Not sure what form this would take, but the fact is, Orkz just don't have much to deal with enemy air, especially heavier air like Stormravens. Forget 6 Stormraven lists, I'm not sure how my lists would bring down one or two of the damn birds!


Honestly, I haven't felt like much is wrong with the Orks. Sure, their tournament position hasn't been much yet, but in my own games, I hardly see any glaring issues that stand out.

 

 

 

Our units of flamers hit D3 times.  Does any other flamer based weapon hit less that D6?

 

Wraithguard.

 

 

1. Ork Weirdboy. Remove the "for every 10 orks within 10" you plus one to your role" and replace it with "for every 20 orks within 12" you can do an additional psychic attack that phase. This makes your weirdboy genuinely feel more powerful the more orks there are.

 

Their current rule already makes them smite monsters.


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#6
greggles

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I wouldn't suggest anything to GW outside of core rule changes.  The codex is already imminent.  Wait and see what comes out of it first.  (But be sure that you will all want to start building lists based on brigades!!!)

 

Core rule change suggestions (remember you can email these directly to the rules team, and they DO read them).

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

 

1) Aura's not effecting titanic keywords or flyer keywords.  (possibly limiting reroll auras to only infantry/walkers)

2) Add a -1 to hit to any ignore LOS weapon, that does not have LOS.  (we used to scatter the full distance if no los, now there is zero penalty).

3) Worst needed to hit a 6 (same as AOS).

 

Orks don't need any balance changes yet, as they have already been rebalanced, we just don't have the book yet.  (supposedly right after Deathguard is AM/Orks Armageddon Campaign).


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#7
Badfang Brassaxe

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1. A rule that limits Orkz to never needing worse than a 6+ to hit in shooting. The fact is, there are too many ways to get minus to-hits in the game and this quickly becomes a major issue with Orks, as we can only lose one point to hit before we just can't hit, period. Something like, "Wall of Lead: Such is the volume of Ork 'dakka' that even when they don't care to aim and their enemy attempts to hide, inevitably, some Ork shots hit home."

This absolutely - Ork shooting has always been a case of 'point da gunz in da general direction and send that much dakka downrange that some of it's bound to hit everything' - short of not actually being there it's difficult to think of any shenanigans that's going to successfully spoil their 'aim'.



#8
AnthonyS

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I am enjoying playing orks in this edition, they just need their shooting game looked at.  My regular opponent is fish'ead so their S5 gun negates the orks T4 - at which point guardsmen are more durable with a 5+ save than the Ork boy, and 2 pts cheaper.

 

I just feel that without a viable shooting game the initiative is always with the opponent.  I can build an army with redundancy and play smart, but i can't dictate play - i have no ranged threat.  If you don't get the first turn you're weathering 2 unopposed turns of enemy shooting.  Thankfully - my opponent hasn't learnt to bubble wrap the important units with Kroot.  If he did i'd really struggle.



#9
AnthonyS

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I wouldn't suggest anything to GW outside of core rule changes.  The codex is already imminent.  Wait and see what comes out of it first.  (But be sure that you will all want to start building lists based on brigades!!!)

 

Core rule change suggestions (remember you can email these directly to the rules team, and they DO read them).

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

 

1) Aura's not effecting titanic keywords or flyer keywords.  (possibly limiting reroll auras to only infantry/walkers)

2) Add a -1 to hit to any ignore LOS weapon, that does not have LOS.  (we used to scatter the full distance if no los, now there is zero penalty).

3) Worst needed to hit a 6 (same as AOS).

 

Orks don't need any balance changes yet, as they have already been rebalanced, we just don't have the book yet.  (supposedly right after Deathguard is AM/Orks Armageddon Campaign).

 

 

Those are fair points, have you sent these to the GW team?



#10
greggles

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Yup.  But more people sending them couldn't hurt.  Can also post on their facebook page.  They have a dedicated team now just for looking at rules, tournaments, you name it.  They are reacting fast, and making solid decisions.  Just hurts a little when you are lacking in your codex yet.  Figure its gonna be a bit messy this fall, and should all iron out by early next year.



#11
Skumdreg

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It could be because I play against very powerful factions at my club (they all take Beakies, nids or tin'eads) so I constantly up against armies that not only have amazing shooting but also have better cc than me... The knight especially can be a pain if they pick a cheaper one. My biggest problem is 8th is that Ork players mostly have to pray to Mork or Gork to just get the dice roll they need to stay alive to do any damage. I've gone against some lists that can destroy an entire 30 man blob turn 1 and there isn't much I can do to counter it (you ever going up against 50 conscripts with a dude letting them reroll their stuff?) 

 

I think the biggest things we can agree on is 6+ always to hit, and the Mork and Stompa need to be looked at. 

 

Also a sent a list of suggestions I have gathered up from a few communities. 



#12
greggles

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Ya, I just figure they will 100% ignore any ork suggestions until after the codex drops.  Then we have chapter approved, which will balance again.  So won't really have a good chance to really look at things till all that is done!



#13
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An issue is I'm on a time limit. Once this year is over I'm likely moving country for a while and can't bring my Orks (I psychically can't bring them). So maybe I'll come back to the game in a few years. XD



#14
AnthonyS

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This is what i sent to the GW boyz:-

 

Really enjoying 8th but here is some feedback based on games to date:-

 

1) There should be a penalty to hit for any ignore LOS weapon that does not have LOS.  I use Ork Lobbaz and does seem cheeky shooting units that you can't see.  This shouldn't stack, however, with a targets ability to modify to hit rolls (like fish'ead stealth suits).

2) Orks need to have 'always hits on a 6' for shooting.  There are too may ways for opponents to reduce to hit rolls so 7 now and nothing we ork players can do about it (no ability to buff shooting at all)

3) Tankbusta's could really do with re-rolling hits against things other than tanks, monsters specifically.  Orks struggle with T8 in combat and tankbustas are our only way of reliably dealing with them

4) the + 1A for over 20 boys is too steep, please could this be reduced to 10.  Please could this also be changed to a buff to hit or extra shot for shoota boys - A horde of shoota boys gets no bonus.



#15
AnthonyS

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...My biggest problem is 8th is that Ork players mostly have to pray to Mork or Gork to just get the dice roll they need to stay alive to do any damage. I've gone against some lists that can destroy an entire 30 man blob turn 1 and there isn't much I can do to counter it (you ever going up against 50 conscripts with a dude letting them reroll their stuff?) 

 

 

I do sympathise with this.  I've lost a unit of 30 boys in nearly all of my first turns.  The only faction that would struggle to kill a unit of 30 orks on turn 1 is orks.


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#16
laughterofgods

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So this is responding to the general problem of getting units of 30 Ork boyz blown off the table quickly as opposed to addressing the potential deficiencies in Orks.  

 

Where a lot of people are right now, particularly many of the super shooty armies is actually in a somewhat similar place as last edition where they are trying to put as many S.6 weapons on the table as possible.  In many cases this is assault cannons backed by reroll granting characters.  An assault cannon is ideally placed to take out ork Boyz.  They wound on 3's (often with a reroll) and ignore our save.  What they are not optimized for is taking out vehicles that are T7 and T8.  If this is in fact the type of problem people are having I would suggest Battlewagons and/or multiple GoMorkonauts.


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#17
Badfang Brassaxe

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Main problem with that is that it's not really an ORK army any more, just a 2nd rate(?) mech list :sowhat

 

Could maybe give the boyz a 6+ invulnerable 'too fikk to know when they's dedd' save?



#18
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this thread is just talking about all the problems in general Laughterofgods and the ways we can fix them if we had control over the game. I guarantee the people on the other forums are talking about how Orks are overpowered while their faction needs buffs, ect... 

In terms of Trukks and stuff... A 2k point trukk army with Morks, ect...  is going to cost you a lot of money in real life... especially for people who already have a 2k point army and doesn't have a single penny to their name right now (I can only afford to spend my money on 40k maybe 3-4 times a year on small things like hq, troops... (My Mork took me selling a lot of stuff on ebay). The main reason is my partner hates me spending the money on it, the other is the money is to support us. The game shouldn't mean that every edition we have to buy a new army just to keep up... it should be balanced enough (not entirely a that's impossible now) for every type of army (as long as the points match) to have a 40-60% chance of winning if you take into account, skill, luck, terrain, ect... 



#19
AnthonyS

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An assault cannon is pretty good at taking out Trukks and threatening battlewagons, its a very versatile choice in this edition of 40k. A twin-linked assault cannon as a weapon on a transport, for just over 100pts, is a no-brainer. What's even more infuriating is how much better it is than the Gorkanauts main weapon, and that's meant to be our super-unit.

#20
warhead01

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I don't ant to be the guy saying "Get good" or anything I just got horribly stomped a week ago.  Which has given me a reason to look at what I was doing and think about changing my list.  I know models cost money and a lot of new players will find deciding what to buy and what's worth it a difficult choice. 
I'm looking at a Gorka Morka list with a mix of units. I'm interested in making playing the mission the deciding factor in a win or a loss. I don't expect I'll get it right away.  Failing that I'll just get stuck in and beat everything to death as long as my dice hold out.
All I can suggest for newer player without access to as many models as I have is change how you play, change they way you play, change the points values of your games. ( find your optimal army list in the lowest points value your group will play.) 
I don't think I'd send a list of complaints or a wish list of changes to GW until I've exhausted everything within my power to do.

in 4 games I'm at  2 wins 2 losses. I'm happy to wait until the codex and Chapter approved are released


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