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Grots in 8th Edition vs Orks

- - - - - Grots Orks Battle report

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#1
Mik McMok the Mek

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Question: Are gretchin worth fielding in 8th edition. Here is a battle report. I based it on points. The grots would have been even better in power rating. I'll let you decide. After overhearing rumblings of revolt amongst the Gretchin in the ranks, Boss Wargrunt has decided to put his foot down. When news of an invading patrol of the neighbouring Broken Teef Klan Boyz, Wargrunt decided to send in his Grots to sort the mess out and leave his Boyz behind to have a day off, (or follow at a discreet distance and entertain themselves watching the Grots get slaughtered as the case may be)
Three thirty grot squads of Gretchin are rounded up, and with the help of two Runtherders, and a Nob who has fallen on the wrong side of Boss Wargrunt’s wrath, are given their orders, “Don’t come back ‘til dose Broken Teef Boyz are all dead!”
A short while later, the grots huddle together on the chosen battlefield, looking for someplace to hide. The plain is flat and barren, without a scrub or gully in sight. Just out of shooting range, the Broken Teef boyz amass, yelling abuse and laughing when they see that Wargrunt has only sent gretchin to do da boyz work.
After a few prods with the Runtherder’s Grot Prod, and a couple of lashes of the other herder’s whip, the gretchin accept their fate and march across the intervening ground, a little bit emboldened/intimidated by the fact that the Nob is marching just behind them, waving the Klan banner like someone possessed. The Grots know that should they survive the day, but lose the banner, life would not be worth living.
A hail of dakka rains around them as they get into range of the Sluggas and Shootas of the invading klan, and five grots hit the dirt, never to rise again. Sensing a quick defeat, the Broken Teef boyz charge, but their charge faulters when they realise that the grots are still too far away.
Smelling the fear in one of his units, the runtherder with the squig hound quickly releases the squig. Three more grots are devoured by the hungry beast but the remaining grots hold steady. “Fire!” Bellows the Runtherder, and the grotblastas erupt in a cloud of smoke and flames, dealing death to the two charging units of Ork Boyz. Three slugga boyz die from the hail of grot dakka, and both the slugga boyz and the shoota boyz charges faulter as doubt momentarily creeps into their brains.
Bouyed by this, the Nob roars his own battlecry, “WAAAAGHHHH!!” and the grots run forward.
Reloading their Grot Blastas as they run, the gretchin green tide advances and let another hail of dakka fly towards the invading klan before attempting a charge of their own.
Grots are surprisingly dangerous in large numbers, and even more so when they are shooting their grotblastas. They are also known for their kunning. Two units of gretchin aimed for the superior firepower of the Shoota Boyz, hoping to kill as many of the boyz as possible before they could return a volley into the oncoming grot charges, while the other unit of grots focused their fire on the slugga boyz, softening them up for their own charge.
Ten shoota boyz fell to the hail of bullets, and another five slugga boyz died too from the grot dakka.
Overcome with confidence, the two runtherders pulled out their own slugga pistols and fired off a volley, killing nothing of significance, as per usual.
… and then the gretchin charged.
Despite their initial enthusiasm, reality soon got a grip of the grot units psyches, with two of the three units faultering under the incoming hail of bullets from the Broken jaws guns. Only one of the three units managed to make combat. Some would argue that the fact that the two runtherders also failed to charge, gave little confidence to the grots they were supposed to be leading, but no one said that runtherders were stupid.
Gork, or perhaps Mork, intervened at this point, giving one of the grot units the courage to continue their charge, and this time, that unit made it into combat. The stutter in the charge, however, did come at a cost. It gave the Shoota boyz an extra moment or two to aim their lethal weapons. Six bullets hit home, though thankfully, the new Grot t-shirt armour deflected two of these shots.
The Slugga boyz fired too, and despite almost firing half of the rounds of ammo than the shoota boyz, they got exactly the same results- so much for statistics, eh!
…. Then came the hack and slay of close combat.
Fortunately for the Slugga boyz, their overwatch volley had whittled the grot unit down to nineteen, therefore negating the rule of ‘Grots are surprisingly dangerous in large numbers’. To make matters worse, in their enthusiasm to charge into the fray, the grots had left their Nob with his Waaagh Banner and their runts behind. The grots, however, still had the momentum of their charge, and struck first. Or shall I say, tried to hit first. They failed miserably, inflicting no damage whatsoever on the hardier Ork boyz.
Let us hope the twenty-six-grot-strong unit on the left flank fared better against the now weakened Shoota boyz. Indeed, they did, and despite the resilient tshirt material of the Ork vests negating two wounds, four more Orks fell, never to rise.
Feeling irate, and not a little humiliated under the glare of their respective nob leaders, the two units of Orks retaliated.
Nine grots perished at the hands of shoota boyz, and another four had their new tshirts ripped or scuffed. Their nob dispatched another grot, with the now infamous grot tunic saving the miserable hide of yet another grot.
As for the surviving twenty-two man slugga boyz, they struggles and got in each others way but eventually all managed to reach a grot somehow. Let’s just say the resulting combat wasn’t pretty, with forty four of the boyz hits finding a target, and even the resilient clothing of the grots could only do so much. Had their been forty one grots, the surviving grot might have felt the wrath of the enraged Nob, but all that was left was a pile of quivering red flesh and a pool of blood by the time the boyz had finished their attacks.
With half of their unit wiped out, the shoota boyz were not so joyous. Six of their number fled the battlefield.
Without the calming (intimidating) influence of the runtherd and his ravenous Squig hound, the grots also panicked and fled, much to the vexation of the two runtherders and the nob with Waaagh Banner who could only watch from a distance in frustration.
Overcome with blood lust, and seeking revenge, The Broken Teef klan rushed forward, guns blazing, to finish off the remaining unit of Grots and their Ork overlords.
A hail of bullets from twenty two sluggas shot at point blank range from the slugga boy unit into the cowering ranks of grot. They couldn’t miss … well, if they weren’t Orks that is! Defying the odds, seven of them actually hit their targets, before the boyz bellowed Waaaagh! and charged.
The remaining shoota boyz, not to be outdone, fired at the runtherder and his attack squig hound. Only one of their shots hit, but even that one failed to wound the infuriated Runtherder. Egged on by their nob, the Shoota boyz also charged too.
Despite the short range of the charge, the grots managed to get a shot off, and even killed one of the Slugga boyz, which is more than could be said for the Runtherder, who naturally missed his own shot…again!
Thanks to the blessings of ‘Ere we go, the Shoota boyz finally successfully charged the Runtherder (on the second attempt after rolling Snake eyes!)
The Slugga boyz charge was not impressive either, (rolled a 3) but as they were literally in the faces of the unfortunate grot unit, they could not fail their charge.
Eight Shoota boyz hacked at the solitary Runtherd, four hit, but his padded jacket absorbed the damage and he remained unscathed. The unit nob stepped up to show them how it was done, and inflicted two wounds to the runtherd, and yet he still lived. Spitting blood into their faces, he smashed his grabbastikk into the nearest ork face, killing two more Slugga boyz.
The Nob with the Waagh Banner was close enough to come to his aid, and attacked next. Swinging his banner with brutal force, he slew another two of the Shoota boyz with one blow.
Meanwhile, the slugga boyz were making short work of the remaining grot unit. This time, the nob struck first, killing three grots. Then the boys hit.
The final grot unit disappeared under a hail of choppa blows.
At this point, Boss Wargrunt stepped in. He, along with a large horde of Nobz and Boyz, had been watching the battle from a nearby hill. He knew the battle was lost and if he didn’t intervene quickly, his precious Waaagh Banner would be lost, so he ordered an all-out charge into the bedraggled remains of the Broken Teef raiding party.
Some would call the massacre of ninety grots a humiliating defeat, but Boss Wargrunt was quite pleased with himself. He had stemmed any impending revolution amongst his gretchin, and at the same time, he had humiliated the Broken Teef raiding party, who had lost over half their number to a bunch of snivelling grots. It would be a long time before they considered raiding into his territory again.

 


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#2
Badfang Brassaxe

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Nice commentary  :thumbs


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#3
Skumdreg

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I seriously would love a army of several hundred grots just to mess with the other player but I kinda see grots as not worth it. They are great for that third unit when you have 60 boyz and also for hanging back or absorbing 10 wounds. But for their points (as boyz are only 3 points more) boyz can do way more... equip them all with shootas and a squad of 30 boyz can do 60 S4 shots... Equip them with CCW and they will still do the 30 pistol shots at S4 (unlike grot S3 weapon) and 120 attacks (150 if you add weird boy or ghaz). But yet.... imagine 270 grots on the battle field and runt herders for only 1K points! Any other 1k point army would be devastated and wouldn't have the fire power to deal with the grots. (would also cost you £270 so good luck with that!)


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#4
Mik McMok the Mek

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Grots in a points game may not be key, espescially now that Runtherders cost 27 points each, but in a power rating game they are far cheaper than Boyz . 30 grots with a runt herd is 5 power level rather than 30 boyz at 13pl


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#5
Skumdreg

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Grots in a points game may not be key, espescially now that Runtherders cost 27 points each, but in a power rating game they are far cheaper than Boyz . 30 grots with a runt herd is 5 power level rather than 30 boyz at 13pl

Ah yes... I think this emphasises how PL can be stupid. Much like the Mork costing less than a Gork despite the Mork being more expensive in points. 


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#6
warhead01

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I like Grots. I don't think I'll use an army of them but they are usually include in my lists and are likely to continue being part of my armies. In Power Level games 30 Grot is a no brainer for me. Hardly costs a thing. Once I pit a pain boy in my army again they'll do a little better.

Grots, My KFF Big Mek and my Warboss won my last game for me. the grots had hardly lost any models by then and charged three beakie units to lock them so they couldn't overwatch against my two Bosses who were also planning to charge. Good enough for me. and game me the model mass to control the center of the table, center objective. 
In points games I'll probably still field 30 maybe 2 mobs of 30 given enough points. 


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#7
Mik McMok the Mek

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I have to agree that the balance between power rating and points is obsurd. I can't understand why a runtherd costs much more than a nob, (let alone a nob in a unit of boyz) and pretty much as expensive points wise as a Warbiker or Flash Git. In a power game i'd consider taking 2 runtherds one with squig hound and another with whip and place them in between two units of grots, (as 3" is not a lot of distance).  (second rank is best so they can't be assassinated from front or rear, i think), but in a points game, i couldn't see myself spending 26 points on one runtherder


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#8
Mik McMok the Mek

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Ah yes... I think this emphasises how PL can be stupid. Much like the Mork costing less than a Gork despite the Mork being more expensive in points. 

I would have thought a Morkanaut would be more expensive, given it has a kFF, that's bizarre, but no surprise that GW didn't take the time to think it through. The Warkopta is a classic example of stupidity, with an ard case, when the actual model they sell (via FW) is as open topped as they come


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#9
warhead01

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So far I have not seen a reason I'd bother with a Runtherd.  Grots just serve a particular purpose in my lists, even with not acting the way they did in several editions. to me a Screen is a Screen, a target no one wants to bother shooting at will come back to bite them. The other thing seems to be that each way to play involving ether Points or Power Levels we'll all have units we like better depending on which were way we are playing. Mek Guns seem like they cost just a ton of points but seem, to me, easier on my head movies when fielded using power Levels. (I really need to see what they cost in points to see just how much that is.)

More on topic Grots haven't let me down yet this edition or in 7th. Seems I could just pass their base LD last year no trouble...  Much the my scrumgrods frustration!  :biggrin


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#10
Skumdreg

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I would have thought a Morkanaut would be more expensive, given it has a kFF, that's bizarre, but no surprise that GW didn't take the time to think it through. The Warkopta is a classic example of stupidity, with an ard case, when the actual model they sell (via FW) is as open topped as they come

It is kinda more expensive (points wise it's way more expensive) but GW decided to still make it less Power Level than the Gorkanaut. Orks are riddled with Power Level confusions. 

 

But yeah, I don't own 30 grots (I only own 10 but they're probably the best painted units in my army and I love them (seriously, they're pretty well pro painted by a friend of mine). But even with 10 they are still very useful (for 30 points it's practically nothing). I used them to surround my Big Mek to make sure nobody could swing around and grab him, I also used them to charge in and soak up over watch. I do have a runt herder but it's mainly there to make sure Moral doesn't kill them off (as I can use my attack squig to only take d3 losses if I fail harshly on the moral) if I am holding an objective. If it's a kill game I tend to not bring him. On that note I have a question, I know grots don't get to have the same leadership as the closer unit near them (which I think is a bad move on GW part as even the cowardly grot wouldn't feel that worried if 100 odd boyz were on his side) but do they get the same leadership as the runt herder? If not I also feel that was a bad move from GW.



#11
Dim_Reapa

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It's not often that a tactics thread comes up where my army style is relevant to others, but this pretty much covers it. I've been running a Gretchin Horde for 4 editions now. I was going to reply in detail in the previous thread on Grots, but this'll do now that I'm less busy.

 

The dismissal of Grots has somewhat surprised me. Not entirely, as there are logical reasons for this (i.e. nerfs to cover, losing unit screens), but given that even in points, Grots are significantly better than they have ever been in any edition, I'm surprised that people are ruling them out. I think this is speaking too soon, and I also think that really, this is a reaction to how Grots have often been used by players, and how these functions no longer work (or at least not as well as they used to). All that means to me is that Grots need to be used differently, and that's how I've been using them anyway.

 

Of course, the often made comparison to Boyz is not favourable. That's fine, but I want to raise one point regarding it. As it happens, Skumdreg sets my point up nicely.

 

I seriously would love a army of several hundred grots just to mess with the other player but I kinda see grots as not worth it. They are great for that third unit when you have 60 boyz and also for hanging back or absorbing 10 wounds. But for their points (as boyz are only 3 points more) boyz can do way more... equip them all with shootas and a squad of 30 boyz can do 60 S4 shots... Equip them with CCW and they will still do the 30 pistol shots at S4 (unlike grot S3 weapon) and 120 attacks (150 if you add weird boy or ghaz).

 

Grots have not changed when it comes to points. Yes, sure, Boyz have a bit more bang for their points, but Grots have always been about half as much as Boyz. That's fine. They're half as good. And this is entirely the point. If Grots can't do what you want them to do (the role you want them to perform) then you've not assigned the right budget. It's as simple as that. Grots are the cheap option. That is never going to be seen to be the "best" option, even if such a concept truly has weight. If you pay 3 points per model, you get what you pay for. They have a presence. In the right numbers, it's incredibly scary, but it's the shittest presence you can get, and of course it is. That's why you can't really compare Grots and Boyz like for like. Because ultimately the key difference can't just be that Boyz are better, because of course they are, they cost twice as much. I know this may sound like I'm being patronising, but take it from me, the comparison is misleading.

 

If you want better troops, you pay more points. That's kind of obvious. So when you compare Boyz to Grots, the temptation is to compare points/PL worth of each against each other. That is pointless, and demonstrates nothing. Well, nothing above Boyz are "better", and well yes, that's obvious. But the comparison that I feel is more worth making is by making two lists: Pick your limit (I.e. 1000/1500pts versus 50/100/150 PL etc). You then make a list where your core troops are Boyz in numbers you want, and then another list where it's Grots in the numbers you want. Okay. With me so far? Now's the important bit: look at everything else in the two lists and compare those.

 

Because that's the key difference really. It's whether you are wanting the Boyz to do most of the work of your list with the support you can just about afford, or do you use Grots to give you the numbers your opponent can't ignore, but get all the toys you want and a lot more. I'm not saying the latter way is better, but it's not a major downgrade, although I suppose it depends on your meta, and how you like to play. I like a challenge. I get pretty bored with easy to use lists. I've made a Nid "Snake" list, and it's so easy to use it's kind of depressing. Using a Grot Horde is not easy, but it's not as if you're cutting your own arms off.

 

The price of the runtherd does not bother me, given that a squad of 30 Grots needed 3 runtherds before, and to maximise it's abilities, naturally you'd want a few Grot units, especially if you're using them as offensive troops and not just to sit in terrain. At that point, having a runtherd with more wounds and abilities, and the option to take them or not makes them much, much better options. You can also load up on other buffers. KFFs, Waaagh Banners, and so on. This sounds mad, even a waste of points, but you forget, your budget for other stuff is twice as much as it would be. It's very easy to support your Grots with Buffers, and have loads of points left to add in nasty stuff.

 

I'm actually looking forward to playing my Rebels from time to time, simply because I've found players incapable of ignoring Grots. Sure, you can kill them easier, but they still have a lot of numbers, soak up a lot of damage, and will stick around better than ever. So yeah, Grots can work as core troops. Such a list is playing 40k on hard mode, but it's doable, and it has teeth if you know where to look.


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#12
Skumdreg

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I don't know... I would say boyz vs grots in an argument worth having. You have to determine if boyz are worth double the points or if they're a bargin for double the points (depending on the answer can change what you pick). And I would say boyz are worth more than just 3 points over a grot. For just 3 points you get 3 to 4 more attacks, re role on charge, higher strength with cc, hitting on a 3 in cc, they on avarage need a 4 to be wounded and don't forget they basically have 30 leadership. And that's already at a cheap price (30 boyz is cheaper than a termy squad and I've seen boyz mow down terminators). With such a low leadership grots can take a huge beating even if you have 30 unless you back them up with a runt herder. You talk about giving grots all these bonuses but honestly a squad of boyz just needs to be boyz and they are double as effective as grots.

Now let's compare basic numbers in close combat to see who is worth the points. (Numbers rolled up and down for easy maths cus Orkz no count good)
30 boyz = 180pts
30 gretchin = 90pts

To get a gretchin to hit on 3s you need a waagh banner so that's 80pts more.

So now
30 boyz =180pts
30 gretchin = 170pts

Now we don't want gretchin to lose up to 6 models every moral phase so we add a runt herder for 25pts

30 boyz = 180pts
30 gretchin = 195pts

So at this point just to get them to the same level as boyz (and still missing other bonuses boyz have) they are already more expensive.

Now if we get to the larger numbers we see that maybe grots are worth taking
90 boyz = 540pts
90 gretchins = 270pts

With add ons it's gretchin = 375pts. That's now 165 points less than boyz and with that you can't get much in the ways of bigger toys. However, the gretchin are now confined to one giant 90 model blob as if they spread out they lose their bonuses. They're not as flexible as boyz who can take on many tasks. And at 540pts for boyz you can still buy a toy or two with them in a 1k point game. So I can kind of understand your stance but it falls short in my head. Just because boyz are more points does not mean we shouldn't compare them. We should evaluate how it's better and if those 3 extra points just get you a slightly beter model or a really cheap and useful model. It's like saying we shouldn't compare a £30 black and white tv from the 70s to a £60 hd tv from 2000s. Sure it's double the price meaning it's better but it's all the bonuses that it comes with that makes it worth way more than double the price and why it should be your first choice unless you happen to just like black and white tvs more. And there is nothing wrong with liking grots more and having a grot army.
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#13
warhead01

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Too much math stuff. 
Got me thinking about 60 grot in a list. Depending. 30 grot to follow the main boys element maybe 6" behind and trying to keep up. 
This creates a dead zone to block deepstrike. and pop up units. It also makes the Grots something the other player will want to deal with. I "discovered" this idea in my last game using Mek gun Krews to fully cover my own back field and flanks. ensuring that on turn one there could be no sneak attacks from the flanks or behind. Controlling the table space is a good thing. 


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#14
Dim_Reapa

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You can make the comparison, but it is misleading.

 

For one thing, I can tell you now, that against an actual force, the Boyz being a bargain dissipates quickly. They don't have Eavy Armour anymore, and they are just as in need of buffers to make them work as any other force. At the end of the day, you're still stacking in favour of Boyz without demonstrating anything. Where are the Weirdboyz for the Boyz? Where are the Battlewagons? Where's the Warboss? Where's the Painboy, Big Mek or the Morkanaut? Also, where's the Nob's PK? Where are the special weapons? Stick any of those in and the points jump up. Taken on their own, Boyz are still twice the price, and not much more difficult to kill in droves, and given the dakka that is starting to turn up for other factions, it isn't that difficult to shoot hordes off the table. Whilst Boyz do get a lot of buffs from rules, they still need the numbers, and the plain fact is that as you strip those down they become average troops very quickly. A list that builds around them is effectively a one trick pony, and you paid significant premiums to get it. You have to make Boyz work, and thus, being a bit more for their cost is helpful, but hardly a no-brainer.

 

Boyz aren't exactly the steal you say in my opinion. They hit moderately well, but as mentioned earlier, they can be annihilated by stray breezes (they can't endure much more than Grots can) and they need to move quickly, and if anything overload an awful lot of killing power (often too much) into units that basically make them if anything overstretch resources into very confined spaces. The potential output of Sluggas may look scary on paper, but delivering it in practice is highly situational. Boyz are far from the last word in our Army List.

 

In the context of Runtherds, I was speaking strictly of forces with multiple Grot units. In that sense, it's a compound saving over what it was, paying a 30 point "you need these three runtherds because 30 grots" tax you paid in previous editions. There is no difference, in my view, in stating that Runtherds are cost prohibitive from stating the same about Morkanauts. The difference is a Morkanaut is a very noticeable chunk of points, for something that is not difficult to kill this edition.

 

On the Waaagh Banner, it is far from a necessary upgrade, but it is at least easier to keep things in range than with the KFF. Its usefulness is minimal, and easy to let loose in favour of other threat options. It only affects Grots in the fight phase, and I've never needed them to do much more than hit on 4s/5s before and still made them work, and that's in editions before they could still shoot in combat. The Runtherd is necessary, but a game changer, they'll stick around in combat far longer than even potentially Orks (not very fluffy, but it works in game currently). The Big Mek is worth considering as it unlocks Grot Tanks and Grot Mega Tanks, which I use alongside Mek Guns and very, very occasionally, Kanz. 

 

I think really you are highlighting my point. You can't make Grots as good as Boyz, but that's the point, that's not what you're trying to do. You're trying to make them passable on a budget, so they have to eat bullets and are a minor threat at the same time. You can try to make the Grots a bit better with Waaagh Banner and so forth, depending on whether you run points or PL those may vary in how useful or pointless they are as inclusions. I'd still say, 160 odd points is not to be sniffed at by any means, especially if you use a lot more Grot Based, low points high BS units.

 

Perhaps you may turn out to be right, but I have used this sort of list in previous editions and done very well with it. Given that Grots have only got better, I'm expecting to report good things, especially since most of the 7th Edition bullshit has ended.

 

And again, Grots are a cheaper alternative to relying on Boyz. You don't need them to be good. That's not what they're there for. Which is why direct comparisons are misleading. Incidentally, there is no point making statements like "there's nothing wrong with liking Grot armies", yes, I already know that, since I've used one for 15 years...

 

Also, I said you can make them work, (although admittedly, reading it back, I hadn't quite made it clear often and early enough) not that they're better or equivalent to Boyz. I just made the point that they're not unredeemable, and I based that on experience, not thought experiments. I hate to pull rank like that, but come on. I've used this stuff.



#15
Mik McMok the Mek

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Some very good points there, guys. In particular, i like Dim's point about the old grots needing three runtherds for a 30 grot unit. I hadn't thought of that.

I also agree with Warhead on the point of owning the battlefield. In 8th there seems to be a lot of options for sneak attacks, jump infantry charging in turn one from your rear ect. I had this very thing happen to me at the weekend and lost 2 units of 30 boys and my warboss in megaarmour  to Nid assaults in my rear in turn one before I could even get a hit off. Boyz espescially slugga boyz are good if they can get to charge first, but they are still Sv+6 the same as grots and get mowed down nearly as easily by a Prime or other such monster. Having a unit of 30 grots covering my ass would have been money well spent at the weekend, and would be invaluable to protect the likes of a Squiggoth or Mork/Gork, even without a Runt.

As to my initial post, in comparing boyz and Grots, the grots nearly wiped out one unit of Boyz, (the shoota boyz) even without the waaagh banner or runtherd, (who both failed to charge and were out of range of influence) In hindsight, i would have been better to shoot the Slugga boyz who were feircesome on close combat, but such is life. THe grots strongpoint was their shooting, not their close combat ability, so comparing is not like for like. They shot the Shoota Boyz out of the water in both normal shooting and even in Overwatch. Yes their dice rolls were good and the Shoota boyz were so bad it was beyond a joke, but statistics will only get you so far. The dice gods are fickle.

i'm sure if i ran the same batlle again, i'd get slightly different results.

The grots would need to use their strengths more and not charge into the fray to get slaughtered, (at least not until the odds are more in their favour) 4+ (or 5) to hit and 6s to wound sucks! Whereas 3+ to hit and 5s to wound is much better odds of success. Grotblastas are only 12" range though, so they are likely to be charged if they don;t charge themselves, and then they are on 6s to hit and 5s to wound. The new 6+save however proved to be a good bonus in 8th edition, making them even harder to kill than before.


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#16
Blakkreaper

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In my experiance so far, 10 as a minimum allowable objective grabber have been a liability as much as a help - which means I got what I paid for. previously paying 35 for something much harder to shift was a bargain. I'm interested in trying them en masse, but the numbers tell me I want to go minimum 60 deep with a runtherd to get enough bang for my buck.


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Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
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#17
Mik McMok the Mek

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In my experiance so far, 10 as a minimum allowable objective grabber have been a liability as much as a help - which means I got what I paid for. previously paying 35 for something much harder to shift was a bargain. I'm interested in trying them en masse, but the numbers tell me I want to go minimum 60 deep with a runtherd to get enough bang for my buck.

I'd be thinking of twounits of 30 each with at least one runtherd in between them, possibly 3 units of 30 and 2 runtherders. However, it depends on what you want them for, what your opponent is and what the objective of the game is. Do you want a flesh wall in front of your boyz to weather the storm of dakka as they march across the board? Do you want something to bring up the rear, hold objectives on your side of the board, and stop any sneaky assaults in your own rear?  Do you want a mobile unit to tarpit enemy walker while you deal with other units, or maybe an annoyance glass cannon unit to teleport into your enemies rear or flank to mess with their heads etc etc


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#18
Dim_Reapa

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In my experiance so far, 10 as a minimum allowable objective grabber have been a liability as much as a help - which means I got what I paid for. previously paying 35 for something much harder to shift was a bargain. I'm interested in trying them en masse, but the numbers tell me I want to go minimum 60 deep with a runtherd to get enough bang for my buck.


That is the bare minimum that you would need to get Grot Hordes to work. I've experimented with 60 in the recent past, as my old converted Gretchin have many battle scars that I frankly can't be bothered to fix at this stage. They work okay, but they don't quite intimidate in the way that 90 do, and they don't have the weight of attacks to effectively kill things. They can still make a nice dent, and they'll cover your minimum requirements if you need them to. It ultimately comes down to whether you want to take more units as support, or whether you want to try harder to attract your opponent's gaze.

 

In my area, we mostly play Power Level currently, so in that sense, the Grot Horde is more of a slam dunk, given how cheaper they are to take in that version. I still feel like I could at least defend the Grot Horde as viable on a points basis, as it's worked every other edition (even at times in 7th before the bullshit really kicked in) and Grots have really got some serious steroids this edition. Which is why I think they'll work fine in points, even though I've only run the horde with PL so far.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Boyz are shit and Grots are ace. I've said from my first post that using Grots is playing hard mode. I don't view it as Black and White vs Colour (that's just patronising to me, as if power gaming is literally all there is to wargaming and all maximum offensive capacity is all that matters), but more a sort of deliberate choice to watch a colour TV whilst juggling hand grenades. It's just more fun.  Anyway. The reason I say the comparison between the two is misleading, is because the debate is moot, and not actually important. Are Boyz pretty much better than Grots in spite of the points difference? Yes, as I've said from the start, that's pretty obvious. But you don't take Grots to cut the mustard in fighting capacity: you take them to get killed, and that's it.

 

I was tempted with the Waaagh Banner (because I have an ideal model for it, the Rebel Grot Banna Wava), but it goes against my philosophy when using Grots. You take Grots because you're not intending to spend points on them. They're there to die. End of. If you take them with Boyz, they can be charge/cover screens, and they're there to be a speed bump. It's the same when they're babysitting vulnerable stuff in the back, or even when they're sitting on objectives. If they're gunning for your grots, you've forced them to deal with something they most likely felt they shouldn't have to. I do that with Ripper Swarms.

 

You can make Grots almost as hard to kill as Boyz. You get more out of bunching Grots together than you ever will with Boyz. If you need that flexibility, then as I said before, Grots are under budget for your desires, why is it even a debate at that point? Grots are there to be a target, if that's all you need to let the rest of your list do its thing. If you want everything to be about the same threat level, take Boyz. If you want to play with people's heads, Grots are a much better option for that kind of convoluted play. And it does work, because I've done it. I've used these sorts of tactics before, in editions where inequalities were far greater than they are now ignoring certain factions (cough Tin'eads cough) at least.

 

If there is any comparison to make between Boyz and Grots in this instance, it's this. Look at it as wounds. Do you want wounds that cause lots of damage, or wounds that are there to be taken? Because that's where Grots shine. Your opponent will need to kill them if you take enough of them. Even at the 60-90 level, they're not good to ignore. Put them in a blob, two up front, runtherd/s and KFF mek in the middle, one in the rear for flexibility, bunched up. Get all those within 12", and that decent BS will shine. I've shot Paladins to death with Grot units before. I'm just rolling enough dice, and my first set of dice I roll isn't discarding about two thirds of the dice rolled, but about half of them instead. That can make a difference pretty quickly.

 

Your opponent can't ignore them, but unlike Boyz, which are a serious threat, they aren't the majority of the list. But they're there to be cheap. It's the same for all Grot-Based units. The second you start throwing too many contingencies and mitigators to up the offence level, then yes, you should just take Boyz. You can stretch to a few, of course, but the Grots aren't there to fight well. They're there to die in such a fashion as they deeply irritate the opponent and distract them from the real potency of your list: i.e. everything else. That's why I say that just comparing Boyz to Grots is misleading, because there's my Mek Gun/Big Gun units, two Grot Tank mobs, Grot Mega Tank, and my Weirdboy, and that's just 1000pts. From that point onwards, there's way more that can be added. The more Grot units you take, the more toys you can take over Boyz.

 

Boyz are great, sure, but you don't need them. Unless you've convinced yourself that they're game breaking, and sorry, they just aren't. They're far too easy to kill.


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#19
Mik McMok the Mek

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Well said Dim.  To summarise your great post, (which is worth reading in full btw) Grots are there to be killed and every bullet wasted on killing a grot is a bullet that didn't hit something more valuable, and they can't be ignored either.


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#20
Mik McMok the Mek

Mik McMok the Mek

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of course, the same could be said of boyz. I have no hesitation in throwing a bog unit of boyz under the wheels of a tank if it means my Flash Gitz don't get run over and get time to shoot the crap out of something useful, but grots are half the price (or less) and die much more gloriously. If your opponent wiped 30 grots from the board, you can shrug your shoulders and say Mah! they're only grots!, but those thirty boyz would be missed.


When all else fails Panic
If that doesn't work...then you know you're up to your neck in it!






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