Jump to content

Welcome to Da WAAAGH
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

KFF

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
69 replies to this topic

#1
laughterofgods

laughterofgods

    Skarboy

  • Boyz
  • 1,470 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo, NY

I am wondering how people are interpreting the KFF.  The rules say that "units that are entirely within 9" have a 5+ invulnerable save."  

 

Coming from both 40k in past editions and war machine I interpret this to mean every model must be within 9", but all of every model does not need to be within 9".  Weapons can only shoot models within their maximum range, but we don't require the target model to be completely within that maximum range.  You only need to touch it.



#2
skarnir

skarnir

    Steel Hornz

  • Blood Axez
  • 661 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Da Emerald Isle
  • Army Name:WAAARGH SKARNIR
The one game I have played this edition. I counte the models that were within 9" as being in cover.

I dont see the need for thr entire base being within 9".

We dont measure movement or range to target to the furthest ppint from origin.

I dont see why we would have to do it for the kff. Its not a cover save.

May the Enemies blood on your choppa never dry or your welding torch grow cold!

 

Ork Tactics by Laughterofthegods

https://www.dropbox....actica.pdf?dl=0

 

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50985


#3
PhillyT

PhillyT

    'Ard Boy

  • Boyz
  • 904 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

I had never really though of that.  I would assume the entire model needs to be within the 9" bubble myself, though now that I think about it, nothing else requires that all of a model's base be in that space.  Similarly, when it refers to auras, most people just have part of a model's base in the 6" range and count it.



#4
Choppanob

Choppanob

    Squigpipes

  • Grotz
  • 67 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Army Name:Still working on that one

This is stated in the FAQ of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

 

Q. Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?

 

A. If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.

 

For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every
model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long
as all the models in that unit are either on or partially
within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

 

KFF has a bit of a different wording "entirely within" instead of "wholly within" but it's the same really, so all of the model base needs to be inside the KFF bubble. (i miss the old way)


  • Snarknit Grokguzz and StormGuard like this

:yes Live off the land. :search Go to find war. :dakka Kill wot comes close. :thumbs Da old ways are best.


#5
Snarknit Grokguzz

Snarknit Grokguzz

    Runtherd

  • Boyz
  • 323 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

yeah, I'd go with a similar interpretation/reading of that for the KFF - there is no grammatical difference between "entirely" or "wholly" in this context.



#6
Boss Ardnutz

Boss Ardnutz

    Suction Foot

  • Boyz
  • 590 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canberra, Australia
  • Army Name:da Maniakz
The example in the FAQ looks to me like an example of "wholly within", so KFF would only need part of every base to be within 9".

#7
warhead01

warhead01

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,062 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crescent City FL.
  • Army Name:Waaagh Gor-Gak !

At this point I'm ok with playing it ether way. the explanations that I've read leave me unsure. I was in the every model must physically be inside the 9" area but it was pointed out that it's the units that has to be with in the area. so some parts of some of the model bases could be "touching".  I guess it's an issue with the language they used. More consistency next time? 


Kick me! to see da blog! WWWAAAAAAUGH!!!

Takein' yer place at da top uv da Heap!


#8
laughterofgods

laughterofgods

    Skarboy

  • Boyz
  • 1,470 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo, NY

Now maybe I am being too anal retentive and drawing on warmachine too much, but it says that the unit needs to be entirely within.  This would seem to say that every model needs to be within.  Instead of saying every model in the unit needs to be entirely within.


  • warhead01 likes this

#9
Choppanob

Choppanob

    Squigpipes

  • Grotz
  • 67 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Army Name:Still working on that one

So you mean that this way you could put some (solo)models with big bases/footprint like dreads, Gorkanauts, battlewagons etc, just a bit into the KFF bubble and still give them the save?

i know it used to work that way when i played way back, and that you could exploit it with only having 1 boy in the unit inside the KFF.

But GW changed that now for the boyz atleast, so vehicles and such would still work like the old days then?

 

It would at least give some more flexibility for the bigger models/units


:yes Live off the land. :search Go to find war. :dakka Kill wot comes close. :thumbs Da old ways are best.


#10
warhead01

warhead01

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,062 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crescent City FL.
  • Army Name:Waaagh Gor-Gak !

We really ought to ask GW. 
We need to phrase the question so we get a proppa answer.


Kick me! to see da blog! WWWAAAAAAUGH!!!

Takein' yer place at da top uv da Heap!


#11
Snarknit Grokguzz

Snarknit Grokguzz

    Runtherd

  • Boyz
  • 323 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

I'd err on the side of the "safer" bet - in this case, every model must be entirely within the bounds of the area effect in order for the unit to receive the benefit.


  • warhead01 likes this

#12
StormGuard

StormGuard

    Flesh Eater Squig

  • Grotz
  • 89 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

I 100% agree, I would advise erring on the safe side as well, for now anyway. :yes

 

SG.


Demo Charges 101:  Pull Pin, Throw, Run Away Very Fast.


#13
warhead01

warhead01

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,062 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crescent City FL.
  • Army Name:Waaagh Gor-Gak !

The KFF has loads of room under it now. Id recommend, any models not "under the bubble" be in the back some where, they can die first.


Kick me! to see da blog! WWWAAAAAAUGH!!!

Takein' yer place at da top uv da Heap!


#14
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Wartrukk Gunner

  • Boyz
  • 1,688 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

I am wondering how people are interpreting the KFF.  The rules say that "units that are entirely within 9" have a 5+ invulnerable save."  

Can't help thinking that it should have said 'models that are entirely within 9" have....'

 

As written it implies that a unit could have one model in base contact with the KFF mek but if only one model is even partially outside the bubble then none of the unit get the save :?



#15
Greyhound

Greyhound

    Tankbusta Boy

  • Boyz
  • 418 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne - Australia
  • Army Name:Greyhound's Horde

Can't help thinking that it should have said 'models that are entirely within 9" have....'
 
As written it implies that a unit could have one model in base contact with the KFF mek but if only one model is even partially outside the bubble then none of the unit get the save :?


That's exactly what it means. If you can fit 29 models under it but one does not fit, no one in the unit gets the benefit.
  • Snarknit Grokguzz likes this

#16
Snarknit Grokguzz

Snarknit Grokguzz

    Runtherd

  • Boyz
  • 323 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

That's exactly what it means. If you can fit 29 models under it but one does not fit, no one in the unit gets the benefit.

 

Yeah, that's my reading as well.  I don't *like* the rule, but that's how I understand it. It's like GW's trying to eliminate area effect spam, but then, why not just remove those elements from the game entirely, rather than have them but only under such extreme restrictions? 



#17
Boss Ardnutz

Boss Ardnutz

    Suction Foot

  • Boyz
  • 590 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canberra, Australia
  • Army Name:da Maniakz
It is a rather ambiguous rule. Does "entirely/wholly" refer to the unit, the individual models that make up the unit, or both? What about units that consist of a single model?

The FAQ makes it even less clear, especially blurring the line between units of many models and units of one model.

It looks to me as though the intention is to have the KFF behave like cover from terrain. For multi-model units you get the bonus if every model in the unit is at least partially overlapping the terrain, but you lose the benefit as soon as a single model is completely outside the terrain. For single-model units, you could either get the benefit only if every part of the model is within the terrain, or if any part of the model is within the terrain - that is not clear to me either before or after the FAQ.

#18
Greyhound

Greyhound

    Tankbusta Boy

  • Boyz
  • 418 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne - Australia
  • Army Name:Greyhound's Horde
Absolutely. Put the first wound on the model outside the KFF, let him die, then "swoosh" the unit is covered for all other wounds.

#19
Choppanob

Choppanob

    Squigpipes

  • Grotz
  • 67 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Army Name:Still working on that one

It seems that cover and KFF needs the units to be entirely within, and since they are using cover as an example i have a feeling the KFF is working as the cover rule.

 

So units with muliple models gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain.

So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

 

The same for single models/characters, but maybe a vehicle like kans,dreads, nauts, battlewagon and the like needs to be at least 50% inside the bubble to gain the benefit?

Otherwise is seems to me that you still can make the bubble artificially bigger bij putting those models just a bit inside the bubble.

 

But it seems to me that GW just wants to get a away from that.

One of the reasons besides that units needs to be entirely within, is that the embarked KFF only gives the transport the save instead of creating a bubble centered around the hull.

You could cover the most part of your advancing army with 1 Big Mek with KFF inside a Battlewagon + putting models slightly inside the bubble or one boy to give the entire unit the benefit. (a bit Op really)


  • Snarknit Grokguzz likes this

:yes Live off the land. :search Go to find war. :dakka Kill wot comes close. :thumbs Da old ways are best.


#20
PhillyT

PhillyT

    'Ard Boy

  • Boyz
  • 904 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

I really think the intention is to have the entire model inside that 9" radius.

 

Morkanaut gives you a massive bubble.