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Roolz, Ruhlz and Rulez

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11 replies to this topic

#1
CheezeN1P

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MWG (idk if you guys enjoy them or not) Is doing a campaign with gorkamorka with some rule changes that make it closer to 7th ed 40k (good or bad idk) I admit I've never played gorkamorka but this campaign has peaked my interest and their changes seem like a good idea?

 

most of the changes are just to how infantry works, the vehicle rules seem to be mostly the same to what i'm reading in da rulez.

 

for example instead of models having firing arcs, they are assumed to be able to turn around in the shooting phase. They Can move 6 inches and run 6 inches instead of 4 and 8, and a few other rules like lowering ws and bs on lower injury rolls to stunned.

 

oh and no overwatch at all

 

Over all most of those changes seem pretty good. me and my buddy may start playing, so i'm curious to thoughts about their rules.

 

http://www.miniwarga....com/gorkamorka



#2
Dim_Reapa

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Just why? Why change it? The game stands on its own two feet... This happens from time to time and it's just utterly perplexing. Bringing SGs "in line" with modern 40k is not something that needs to happen, especially given how pathetically bad 40k is as a system.

 

Only GW people do this. You wouldn't go to some random gaming club and see a game being played and want to change it to be more like 40k so that you could enjoy it, yet SGs endure this all the time.

 

Not a fan, as you might imagine.


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#3
Lucio

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Just why? Why change it? The game stands on its own two feet... This happens from time to time and it's just utterly perplexing. Bringing SGs "in line" with modern 40k is not something that needs to happen, especially given how pathetically bad 40k is as a system.

 

Only GW people do this. You wouldn't go to some random gaming club and see a game being played and want to change it to be more like 40k so that you could enjoy it, yet SGs endure this all the time.

 

Not a fan, as you might imagine.

 

RPG community have been doing this for years, converting one setting to another favourite system. However bad you think 40k is, maybe some people find it easier than the older versions?

 

That said, I'm totally converting GorkaMorka to my favourite system, Savage Worlds :)


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#4
Dim_Reapa

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However bad you think 40k is, maybe some people find it easier than the older versions?

 

None of these changes "simplify" GoMo. Mostly because it's not that difficult to understand or play. It's subject to abuse and powergaming, but if you're going to take aspects of a system to avoid that, the last system you would consider for that would be 40k, given that it's not remotely balanced at all, and a happy home for powergaming douche-bags itself.

 

Just don't buy your argument.



#5
CheezeN1P

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Just why? Why change it? The game stands on its own two feet... 

 

Is a good point and a good question, the only SG I actively play is blood bowl, but I don't see many people trying to modernize that one. (does it need help in some areas, probably

and not from a balance standpoint either, just in a clunky / Fiddly mechanics kinda standpoint.)

 

when you play Dim do you ever house rule anything? I mean I feel like most people probably just play the game as it is in the rule book right?

 

Trying to talk my friends into playing they were turned off on the firing arcs rule (interestingly some are x-wing players)  / have to shoot the most immediate threat rules. And the steps to take when need a roll of 7 or higher.

 

 

maybe some people find it easier than the older versions?

 

And my buddies (and maybe even apart of me at first) kinda saw that stuff as extra time and complexity possibly not needed.

Maybe reactions like that are what is inspiring people to mess with the rules. I mean its no secret that board games these days are all about streamlining clunky fiddly rules.



#6
Dim_Reapa

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when you play Dim do you ever house rule anything? I mean I feel like most people probably just play the game as it is in the rule book right?

 

I do use some house rules, even have some running for "modern" GW games. It's true that it's more common for groups to not use House Rules at all, but for me, a House Rule is about working within a system to solve its own problems, and not using some other game as a "familiarity patch".

 

I don't have many House Rules for SGs, as most of them are among the best things GW has ever written. So it just surprises and saddens me when SGs are "patched" when they never needed it with inferior games and concepts that weren't needed, or simplifications designed for a game using usually more than 50 models a side for something typically less than 10. If anyone wonders how stupid this can be, just compare Necromunda: Underhive (made "in-line" with 40k rules) to Necromunda Community Edition (made by people who actually fucking understood the system and what changes were needed) or the original Necromunda version, which needed a few tweaks, but not anything that Necromunda Underhive actually did, with the exception of High Impact, which is one of the few House Rules I use when playing Necromunda, as I don't use underhive, because remakes of SGs aren't guaranteed to not be shit, especially when they indulge inclinations to throw in 40k-esque features that add nothing to the game.



#7
CheezeN1P

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I watched a few more episodes of their Campaign. ( I do enjoy watching them )

 

http://www.miniwarga...rative-Campaign

 

This one you can kinda start to see their newer rules crack.

 

They replaced the would table instead of losing 1 WS  and BS on a 1 & 2 , you just get stunned.

Which makes their really poor wound rolls against the grots just never amount to anything, and the players slowly get destroyed.

 

So I'm starting to see now what you mean.

I've seen people say "playing modern gorkamorka" or something along those lines, does that mean with this kinda swapped out rules or what?



#8
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I don't know for sure, but I assume so. This kind of language does make me want to vomit almost as much as it makes me want to laugh. The sort of people who suggest that rules somehow "age" or that old rules must always be more convoluted than ones that were more recently written. It's a complete misnomer. Either rules work, or they do not. That is it.

 

In terms of a skirmish, more detail is necessary. Trying to crowbar abstracts from 40k, a game that wants you to take whole armies worth of models, to adapt a system designed to handle a dozen models on average in the pursuit of "speeding up the game" or making it "in-line with" a game it has sod all to do with are just misleading. The way to speed up games of Gorkamorka or Necromunda is to get to the point where everyone knows how the rules work, and then they'll be really quick about it. Instead, messing about with the rules just creates more nonsense to track, or solves the speed issue, but loses some of the advantages that come with more complex rules.

 

The point of reducing WS and BS is that it tracks how much damage an individual fighter can take before they pass out. It provides a redundancy against needing 6s to reliably take models out of action. Much of the other rules are utterly convoluted entirely unnecessary additions. Besides, claiming the old GoMo rules are somehow outdated doesn't win you any friends, especially if you proceed to introduce rules that are utter dogshit, like that Injury Chart. I mean seriously...


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#9
Nargred Uz Frothel the Grand

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I tried watching it. Really didn't understand the need to alter close combat when it is very elegant in GorkaMorka.

Though what made me stop watching was they were just so boring.
QUOTE (Scarpia @ Aug 1 2006, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now if only the big shoota was rending...... :lol

QUOTE (Sproston Green @ Dec 29 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everybody knows real tank destroyers are open topped, (da betta ta watch da explosions and all).


#10
CheezeN1P

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In their latest video they said something along the lines of while they first saw the rules as old, as they play with their new ones they now appreciate the original rules. And reverted the movement to old gorkamorka instead of 40k in their battle reports.

But he specifically called out the teef progression rate in original gorkamorka needs help.?

Shooting and how close combat works (aside from 8 inch charge) is still 40k. Maybe next week they will change all that too lol. Still I'm enjoying watching the battle reports.

#11
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The Teef system is supposed to be limiting, and that's kind of the point, really. Progression isn't supposed to be mega, some crews are going to be crippled by circumstance and never recover etc. This is part of the fun of SGs. There isn't a buffer zone to keep things about level, like there is in Necro, but there's also less likelihood of Mobs zooming away in quality, especially if all players know what they're doing.

 

Anything can happen, and that's an idea that is not old-fashioned, it's the hallmark of good design.

 

And ultimately, if you want to change the game for a different experience, why not just make a whole new game? 40k is just not a good system for "breathing life" into SGs. A crisper, more refined version of the old 40k Skirmish System is better found in the LOTR/Hobbit ruleset than 40k. 40k just isn't very good, and it just doesn't work for a skirmish. The rolling is too forgiving, movement is too generous, cover saves are pretty meaningless because the firer is rewarded for taking any kind of shot regardless of difficulty, and the majority of the rules are either clunky gimmicks, or streamlined for brainless simplicity, which is fine when you have 100 models to move. Doesn't fucking matter when you're moving 2-15.

 

I imagine combat will just be a stupid mess, often with mutually wounded, hobbling models that couldn't take each other out. If they wanted to speed up the game, they failed right here. With the old 40k Skirmish system, a model taken down is taken out straight away. That just doesn't work if your melee isn't broken down to a sort of duel system, and it just becomes a case of roll 6s on the right kind of roll: the game. Well done guys.

 

Oh and on the frequency of this chopping and changing in RP circles, the fact is, RP is about Role Play. It's players engaging in a story via a GM. A ruleset is just there to help the GM sort stuff out, and in many cases when I GM, I don't consult the rules for very much. Whereas miniatures games are not like this. Systems are far more important, and the overall feel of how each game is played varies, and there are no GMs (usually) to regulate how the game aught be played. Taking a large scale battle game written by morons and attaching onto a small scale finesse skirmish (thus removing much of said finesse) written by GW when they had writers with talent is idiotic from any perspective.

 

40k doesn't really modernise SGs, and pretty much all of them have nothing to do with their foster systems. It would be like trying to crowbar Warmaster into using the AoS system "because it's modern". It makes no sense whatsoever for that system.

 

I still don't get why they've done this. But as they think adding the experience of 7th Ed 40k to anything as a good idea, I think they do deserve the bad results they're experiencing.



#12
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I'll weigh in!

I've only watched the first two weeks of the campaign so far and have both good and bad things to say about it. Firstly it looks amazing. High definition video of beautifully done models and amazing terrain - luverly!

Not so good though is the pacing. The changes they've made don't sit well with me (I'll get into that in a bit) but I truly admire them for taking the idea and making a complete rule set of them. Many people have talked about it and nothing has come of it. Whether I like their version or not I take my hat off to them for getting it done and releasing it. It takes hard work and a lot of time and most projects barely make it past the initial idea stage.

 

I've not fully understood their entire ruleset as they take a fair few things from modern 40K that I'm honestly not familiar with. I can read the rulebook but that's not really the same as playing a load of 40K games and getting a good understanding of how the bits they've taken impact things.

 

Watching the videos something major stood out to me - it doesn't feel right. I don't mean because the rules are different - it's not that at all. It's something in the way the systems interact that feels off. Instead of watching a narrative unfold it seems to be more like a cross between Snakes & Ladders and the mechanics of a pen-and-paper RPG. The former in terms of "I guess I'll do this next. It's the only thing to do, really." and the latter in terms of the "Attempt feat - roll X or higher!". There doesn't seem to be much in the way of a gut-feeling or a plan behind the actions of the players. That probably improves later in the campaign admittedly but from my perspective as a viewer there's been a whole load of games (8?) and yet there's still this general lifeless feeling to it.

 

I know when I played with people from tUGS there's a certain spark. The warriors all have names and develop a personality as actions are performed. They're not Ork Yoof #2 - they're Morduff with rubbish WS but two choppas and an iron skull! Instead I feel like too often the videos just boil it down to the numbers. Numbers aren't what the game is about - they're there solely to create a structured environment for stories to unfold. I hope this improves in later videos but it's an interesting way to illustrate the concept.

 

In raw mechanical terms I really dislike the use of the term "assault phase" and the subsequent additional movement it seems to involve. In full-on 40K it's fine but with so few models it feels weird. Surely Snikrot should have to choose whether he fires his six-shoota at Gazgrub or whether he charges him? Choices make the game what it is and being able to do both eliminates a pretty major choice. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding here though. Similarly close-combat doesn't seem to be anywhere near deadly enough!

 

Generally speaking I can see what they've tried to do but see virtually no improvements. The resulting rule set has the weaknesses of both its parents without their strengths (at least in terms of watching - perhaps it's a blast to play  :thumbs ).

 

All that aside - the amount they've done to raise the profile of Gorkamorka is astounding. There hasn't been this much interest in years!

 

 

Trying to talk my friends into playing they were turned off on the firing arcs rule (interestingly some are x-wing players)  / have to shoot the most immediate threat rules. And the steps to take when need a roll of 7 or higher.

What odd things to take issue with... The 7+ thing basically never comes up and the immediate threat thing makes perfect sense if one thinks like an Ork!


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