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Gorkamorka... Base conundrum.
Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:03 PM
Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:40 PM
That's not interpretation, that's actually how the rules work!
Our solution was the literal interpretation of the transport rules, boiled down to the principle. "If it balances, it fits."
The rules in GoMo simply require WYSIWYG. There are no vehicle capacities and as such base size isn't particularly important. Strictly speaking there could be some really minor balance issues but in all honesty there's plenty of much bigger issues to contend with if we're talking rules balance.
It's also important to remember that the vehicle models that were around at the time were for player convenience. They weren't the "official" size - that's not a concept that exists in Gorkamorka. Just look at the pictures section of Da Uvver Book - the game was built for vehicles of all sorts of sizes.
In theory you could make a trukk with a big basket on the bag and pour orks in but it really wouldn't be in the spirit of the game to do so. Build your vehicles to have enough room for your models. If you run out of room then it's time to get some more wheels!
The only base-based rule (aha) concept that comes up is "in base to base contact" - except given the way the plastic GoMo models stuck out with weapons there's no way the tiny Gorkamorka bases would ever actually touch one another anyway. As long as it's clear the two are in base to base contact in terms of rules then the literal sense isn't an issue.
Personally I tend to cut bases out of plasticard to fit the model rather than use official ones, other people I know use small coins. Some even use big ol' round bases. It doesn't make much difference to how the game plays at all. As long as you're playing to the spirit of the game then you can't go wrong.
Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:30 AM
Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:00 AM
War isn't about who's right... war is about who's left...
Sumus ubi Sumus
Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:02 AM
I don't think I understand the problem. Why can't he use them? The advantage is minimal. Base size isn't an important factor in game balance in Gorkamorka. It is in other games, sure, but here it doesn't matter.
The problem is that one my players is threatening to pull out of the campaign if he can't use his newly aquired dune based models.
as for the vehicles and transporting stuff I know I have scratchbuilt and and customised the basic footprint of all my vehicles but this player refuses to "cut up his trukk."
I was simply wondering if anyone had experienced this and had found a novel way to get around it.
I could see minor issues with old, small orks vs. new ones, but even then the size difference doesn't really break anything because Diggas are the same size and don't cause problems.
Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:28 AM
Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:31 AM
Well Mr.Git, I don't see the problem.
The 'dune' models with their smaller bases give an advantage in fiting on vehicles, and in mobbing up on figures in melee.
Now if he was weighting his bases with lead to get them to stay in the trukk.....
The problem is that he can fit more than twice as many models in a trukk also that the use of 28mm bases was agreed months in advance and only became an issue a fortnight before gaming in due to start.
Not only 8is it a ppain for ths players who have already based up thir models but it will save him the cost of an extra trukk (which everyone else will need,) it will allow him to drop far more mobsters on one combat all at once than other players can, and practically guarantees dominance in any boarding action by weight of superior numbers.
All of which would be fine if he was paying for these advantages or had gained them later in the campaign by skilled paying, recruiting and lucky income rolls givng him an edge but it is somewhat of an issue in a starting mob for no additional cost.
Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:43 AM
My advice: You should play first battle in 3 or 4 person, team up, and rape his mob on the table
I try to convince my old pal from RPGs and WFB, WH40K - power gamer, for playing GoMo and he said : "Sure, fine, i'll buy: Nobz, 2xSpans and a Boy, 2 trakks and mount in each Big Shoota - we'll see what you do against my mob." It means, there are such people who are not interested good game and having fun but always and always want wining.
And one more thing. "But this player refuses to cut up his trukk." - Srs? He agree to play game 18 years old where most fun were put into creating own unique car models and he don't want to do it? In 2013 we have so much ideas, we can easily search web (Google graphic) for others works to inspire ourselves, we have tools, materials and he ... REFUSE?! DAFAQ?!
Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:24 AM
The problem is that he can fit more than twice as many models in a trukk also that the use of 28mm bases was agreed months in advance and only became an issue a fortnight before gaming is due to start.
This is a pretty fair criticism, but I can't help have some sympathy. For one, I've been using the same GoMo mob (albeit repainted and added to) that I have since GoMo came out. I use the proppa Rebel Grot minis, on the proppa GoMo bases and there is no way I would re-base my GoMo mob for any modern campaign.
It seems a little cheesy in this case, but it sounds to me as though that is what your group is about. WeRT pretty much had the same thought as me. A game like GoMo that can be easily exploited by groups not solely dedicated to having fun are just not for power-gaming or over-competitive groups or individuals. I imagine the campaign will probably be a train wreck if no one aims for the fun factor, whether the bases become an issue or not.
Still, it's not that bad, we aren't on about Inquisitor here, so there's no true "you're doing it wrong" and there's no false "you're doing it wrong" message either. I have played various games of GoMo, I've been in games where the bases have mixed perfectly fine. I'm somewhat lucky, as most people think those bases are okay for the Gretchin statline. But my views are more radical. It irritates me that people think it is inconvenient when the proppa bases are used.
However, my solution to this would be to allow the player to do so. But, he's using the original bases, so if he wants to use them, he has to use the original trukk, and original models too. That would act as an equal restriction on his models that is similar to everyone else. Still, you could let him play normally and I guarantee that the bases will cause more problems for him than they solve.
Not only is it a pain for the players who have already based up their models but it will save him the cost of an extra trukk (which everyone else will need,) it will allow him to drop far more mobsters on one combat all at once than other players can, and practically guarantees dominance in any boarding action by weight of superior numbers.
The latter two are not necessarily correct, and the former is not much of an advantage. Numbers in combat is questionable. It'd be more likely if he played Rebels, but Orks still have to get there, and most combat occurs in boarding actions, where outnumbering doesn't occur, so often that excess will be standing around with bog all to do. Certainly, it means he can engage most of the contents of a trukk easily, but it doesn't guarantee dominance by any stretch, especially once advances start coming into it. Besides, it isn't the size of the base that's the problem with combat contact (which remember has to travel a fraction further to get into B-t-B), it's the numbers gained from one less trukk, which to be honest isn't really worth it.
Let him take the one trukk. This is what GoMo players refer to as having all one's Buzza Squigs in the same Hive. Or all one's eggs in one's basket. One trukk, eh? That'll last long...
Make use of long range combat, take down the trukk at the earliest opportunity. That big scary mob will have to walk, and if that one trukk starts taking permanent damage, he'll start wishing he had two. Which is hilarious as he'll likely never afford it. Plus, I've seen plenty of mobs that are low on models come out of a GoMo round pretty much intact. It's the cruel mistress of Specialist Games, any advantage is no clear certainty like it is in the Cores.
All of which would be fine if he was paying for these advantages or had gained them later in the campaign by skilled playing, recruiting and lucky income rolls giving him an edge but it is somewhat of an issue in a starting mob for no additional cost.
Yep, and vehicle size is the same. Large bases can be just as cheesy, because it "justifies" gamers in making bigger and bigger trukks. But the older I get, the less of a crap I give about any of it. The fact is there is no easy advantage to be gained in GoMo. Virtually all of them present their own weaknesses, especially if you've balanced out the gaming group with enough different kinds of mobs. Solitary vehicles present one obvious and easy target. If that is ever removed the likelihood of winning any scenario is more or less nonexistent. Massive, over-sized vehicles? Sure they fit more, but that means they are likely also solitary, and very easy to hit with template weapons: Big Luggas, Stikkbombz, and Scorchas etc will hardly ever miss, even if they scatter.
Small vehicles? Fit bugger all. If the player is using proppa GoMo bases, it'll fit slightly more than bugger all. However its weight on the psychology is to encourage shooting attacks, just because players using larger bases wont think they can board.
I hate to say it, but Gorkamorka is not a game for the competitive gamer. It's for deranged insane Orkyphiles who realise the best thing to do with a wargame is have fun. If that doesn't describe your group you will probably be better off with another game. But I doubt you'll run into as many issues as you expect, especially if you enter it with the right mentality.
Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:25 PM
Does his mob get twice as many teef?
The problem is that he can fit more than twice as many models in a trukk
The amount of models he can field depends on how many teef his mob earns not how many he can fit on a vehicle. In theory he could use bigger models and just make a massive trukk - base-to-base contact wouldn't change and boarding a vehicle doesn't normally end up swamping anyone unless they're playing Rebel Grots (who get the Pilin' On rule - page 37 of Digganob - and so can benefit from the multiple combatants rules when boarding. On foot the width of the model is not that different. The base may be much smaller but the models stick out about an inch in width just like the modern ones. I measured my old and new orks, for example:
You might notice that the original Gorkamorka ork is actually modelled on the one in lots of Gorkamorka-related official pics. I always liked that model.
Anyway, he seems pretty puny, except:
He's not significantly narrower than modern models.
Sure, his base is tiny, the comparison, to scale, looks like this:
But the actual models on top of the base are what, a few mm difference at most, depending on pose.
This is the bit that confuses me. Where is he getting the superior numbers from?
practically guarantees dominance in any boarding action by weight of superior numbers
Gorkamorka (much like lots of other games with RPG mechanics) hinges on opportunity cost. A limited pile of resources have to be allocated and its up to the player how they use them. Personally I try to go for a balance of firepower and numbers, others prefer small mobs tooled up to the nines, others favour getting half of Mektown on the board. The game is built for that.
So if he is able to field superior numbers what has he sacrificed to do that? Where did everyone else ditch their teef in order to be weakened by that strategy? Superior numbers are easily combated by template weapons, like Dim_Reapa said. If boarding is an issue then spend some teef on spiky gubbinz to make life harder for them!
If he wants to put all of his troops on one vehicle then that's his call. It means a single point of failure, a single Big Gun, and a lot of risk. If you guys take out that trukk and it gets totalled he has nothing to fall back on and will have to start selling stuff off. How is that an advantage?
it will save him the cost of an extra trukk (which everyone else will need,)
How would he get superior numbers in boarding? The average Ork is Initiative 2. So that's a 1/3 chance of getting aboard. There are no multiple combatants rules onboard a vehicle (unless you're Rebel Grots, as I said earlier). You'll fight one on one. Any spare combatants don't get a crack at the action.
and practically guarantees dominance in any boarding action by weight of superior numbers.
It sounds like your problem is with the guy's attitude, not with his models. This stuff is agreed beforehand to prevent these kinds of arguments. I don't agree with all the decisions made by my friend when we're playing Necromunda, for example, but I didn't care enough to argue - I'd rather have fun playing the game with friendly folks than ensure we're playing strictly to my interpretation of the rule books.
The problem is ... that the use of 28mm bases was agreed months in advance and only became an issue a fortnight before gaming in due to start.
Yes, on a large enough scale having smaller bases provides a minimal advantage but the advantage is so tiny compared to the many other things going on. I mean literally millimetres tiny. Would you insist that all grots have to be on 25mm bases, for example? They'd get about three of 'em on one of their vehicles!
I have to agree with Dim here - do not play GoMo with power gamers. It's not a finely tuned rule set and never will be. It's a fun, light-hearted beer 'n' pretzels game. Vehicles have names in it, for Gork's sake!
Now, now, WeRT. The game is only 15 years old
He agree to play game 18 years old
Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:44 PM
- Arkul likes this
Posted 29 October 2015 - 02:44 PM
Have him blu tak to cover the rules. As for his shotgun theory, it won't really work out all that well for him.