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A Pheonix guard problem


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12 replies to this topic

#1
Mad Mek Snowfyre

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My first post in da cave....

Semi-recently, I had a certain problem of trying to fight this off in a 2k army...

It's a high-panzee army, approximately 30+ pheonix guard (horde formation),
BSB with the world dragon banner (i.e. unit cannot be affected by magic) and great weapon,
and a level 4 life mage (usually, sometimes it's light) with some item that makes him etherial and another funny item that negates enemy magic items in base-to-base.
I can't remember what banner is in that unit, but I believe it's either the flaming banner or the Armour piercing banner.


So this huge expensive unit happily goes around and seems to just eat my army, sure I do avoid it, wipe out the rest of the army, but eventually because it's so many points he'd still end up winning on VPs cause it's over half his army points in that one unit, and well, his general, BSB and one banner is there too so I can't break the army in Blood n Glory..... I have to figure how to crack that unit.

Trouble is the BSB prevents me from nuking the unit with magic and once I Do kill the BSB, the life mage happily starts resurrecting the pheonix guard.
that and the 4+ ward makes it quite irritating to kill, (that and the panzee strike first rule doesn't really seem to work)



So any ideas for how to crack this unit open or at least cause enough damage without sacrificing too much?
May Da WAAAGH! be with you....

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#2
Nob Rott

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50-60 strong night goblin horde (i'd go with 100, just to cover shooting losses) with nets, 3 fanatics, command, skarsnik, and BSB with +1 LD banner. Make sure you charge, and charge into the side with two wolf chariots. Use skarsnik to challenge his BSB, skarsnik will win. On average dice rolls, you will win by 4, and his BSB will be dead.

#3
Dribble Joy

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Remember that he can answer a challenge with the BSB, Mage or Unit Champion, getting rid of that banner is not going to be easy. What he will most likely do is reply with the champion, and given that they can take magic weapons, you are going to seriously struggle, especially when your magic weapons don't work. Frankly, this is a well known combo, and a dirty one at that. Power-gaming at it's most horrid and you will be hard pressed to stop it. The obvious alternative is to not play him.

#4
Nob Rott

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Unit champion with magic weapon still won't kill skarsnik, and you won't have any magic weapons for him to ignore. You should still win combat.

#5
Grimskul25

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Things that hit before being killed such as chariots, mangler squigs and fanatics are all pivotal towards High Elf deathstars since their high I almost always leaves us with much less attacks and early heavy casualties. Mangler squigs are and fanatics are particularly good since if you manage to get them towards them they do a high amount of attacks and face even more damage if they "kill" them by walking into them. If he invests so much into the deathstar I'm guessing he only got a couple of bolt throwers or a unit of archers as range which will be less than adequate to deal your guys.
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#6
Mad Mek Snowfyre

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Thanks for your ideas so far Oh I do easily munch up the rest of the sea guard, archers, bolt throwers and odd white lions, but it's just that one single unit which wins by VPs. I can suicide a unit in to specifically try to kill the BSB (who isn't too hard to kill, frankly as he's only got eavy armour) so can direct 6 models worth of attacks against him, though after the BSB goes down, the life mage happily starts bringing dead pheonix guards back, though I can try to nuke the unit with spells after the BSB is gone. Though the mangler squig and fanatics sounds like a great idea.... Does seem that the two predominant strategies so far seem to be either "Causing as much shooty-like damage" and "killing the BSB" Also a question, Can the mage accept challenges and thus force you to get a draw on a challenge because of the magic item combination the mage has?
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#7
big mek tank krusha

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to really break that unit i'd field as many squads of 20 night-gobbos with fanatics in a line, so that when he gets close to your 3 gobbo units, he takes 9D6 S5 armour piercing hits, or if the fanatics don't reach it's 2D6 hits for him charging into them. maximum of 18D6 S5 AP hits should do the job nicely. flank-charge with something like a chariot for impact hits on one side and a black-orc squad on the other - on the flank he can't attack in ranks, only one, so it's 5 dudes attacking 20+ black orcs with great weapons. plus if you keep 2 of the gobbo squads further back by half an inch or so (stagger them) that way he'll charge the first with whats left of his fanatic'd army-squad, it'll probably break and be overrun, so he'll charge into the second squad, then the third squad, the orcs and the chariot can slam into the sides and pulverise them. a couple of mangler squigs would also do some serious damage to this unit - if both hit it's 4D6 S6 AP hits on the unit. add that in with the fanatics and you'll be laughing by the time they hit your line (well, the 4 or 5 that's left anyway) if each fanatic hit twice (death throes and all) it'd be averaging 7 hits per fanatic, 9 fanatics - 63 S5 hits, plus another 14 S6 hits from the squigs. if everything went perfect (all 6's) you'd have a damage capability of 108 fanatic hits and 24 squig hits. then the combat. hope this helps!

-BMTK-

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#8
choppastorm

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I return from beond the grav....... sorry about that. anyways, the best thing to invest in is a 99 night golin hoard +bsb with posion banner (and short bow) cost 440pts 60 shots posioned is nothing to laugh at my other idea is invest in thouse wonderful things call artillery 35pt bolt throwers, lobbas, anddoom divers are all very effective aginst T3 flesh :biggrin
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#9
Oogie boogie boss

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I'd fix him with a biiiig unit of Gobbos or Orc boys, then hit him with a giant. The Giants ability to pick up individual characters and remove them straight away will take care of his BSB, and if you get really lucky, you may also be able to take out his mage in the same phase. Even if not, he'll cause casualties, which will counter the losses the gobbos are going to take, and be hard to kill in combat. Also, i hate players who use super-charged units. In fact, generally i hate High Elves. Just console yourself with the fact that people who generally max out a single unit do so because it requires zero tactical skill to use. It's much more satisfying to win with the army as a whole, than because of the unit equivalent of Superman. Hope that helps. SMASH DER POINTY-EARED FINGS!

#10
ikken

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yup 2 mangler squigs will soften him up for the NG unit with 3 fanatics and nets . that should do it . and as mentioned rock lobba and doom diver . the 2 manglers will cost less than 150 points , that alone should do significant damage . if there are fanatics running around as well then life gets pretty depressing if you are a high and mighty pointy eared bad smelling fellow doesn't it . :) at the very least it will be fun to watch

#11
big mek tank krusha

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have you also considered a big mob of black orcs with a BSB with 'morks war banner'? would dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the mage at ranged, then when they get into CC all the magic items he's got don't work at all! plus if you flank the unit with 2 mobs of 30 night gobbos with fanatics & bows, it protects against flankers, softens up chargers and can unload a fair few shots for good measure. sadly grimgor's unit can't have a BSB attatched, though he may well chew through some of the funny-smelling buggers regardless of having mork lookin' over him.

the other technique is tactic based. frankly, a unit like this is quite easy to outmaneuver, with hordes being a pig to wheel anywhere and reforms not letting you march. if you angle one 'powerful' sacrificial mob (stick a gobbo with a great weapon in it or even your BSB to lure him in), when he charges it and subsequently wipes it out/overruns/you flee, he'll be exposing his soft back to another tactically placed unit, preferably something fast like boarboyz, chariots or spider riders (or both), which above anything else rely not a jot on magic items, just plain ol' brawn. rear charge adds +3 (or is it +2...) to combat res, he gets a maximum of 10 dudes attacking, with any luck you'll carve him a new 'un, resulting (hopefully) in you overrunning the foe, or by him running away through the gobbo unit you lured him into, killing a few more to dangerous terrain tests.

also try luring him into a charge, fleeing and then having his charge move pull him out of position, and into range of some fanatic-wielding night gobbo units lurking behind your lines.


so the elf has a power that makes him immune to non-magic, and an item that negates magic items. (therefore making close combat impossible to win with). pretty sure there should be a rule against making a model immune to everything.

if you can get a shaman with brain bursta, 'eadbutt or both then you could possibly take out the main problems (as it picks a model not a unit) - does the dragon banner make the unit immune to magic or just hard to affect by it? 'cos if you got lucky and took out the standard bearer with one of the spells, it'd leave him open to be left behind with some gobbo magic (itchy nuisance to be precise) and so you can slaughter his army then converge on the one unit left, which invariably loses combat.

that or equip a few pump-wagons with explodin' spores or spikey rollas and slam a few of his models into the ground.

so many possibilities, like getting a shaman with the +3A+3S spell going in your unit, then using him to pulverise him (in addition to a big unit, obviously). if he makes a challenge then just stick your champion out with him, as him getting an overkill of 2 is better than him killing 3 models, with the same combat resolution result. if he doesn't want to challenge, issue one with your champion, and hope he refuses (to send one of his powerful guys to the back in shame!)

-BMTK-

the proppa way to loot a bastion!

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#12
Mad Mek Snowfyre

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And I return from the warp. And see so many good ideas here. Seems that the common suggestions added is either massed shooting, flank charging with huge units, or mangler squigs + fanatics or supercharging your own unit with magic instead. And the mork banner sounds very interesting solution too. As for the mage well, he's perfectly almost unkillable. with that combination of magic items, there's only four ways to actually hurt him short of negating his magic items: 1) death magic (which is negated by the banner) 2) making him blow up with miscasts (a dark elf ROH strategy though) or using the feedback scroll.... 3) magical shooting attacks (which is hard to force wounds on him unless you are using a cockatrice, which is also hard to kill him anyway) and 4) magical close combat attacks that don't use magical weapons (such as upgraded HPAs, Yethis, anyone who has abian blades/flaming sword buff etc).... world dragon banner makes the unit completely immune to magic. So on the plus side the unit with that banner can't be buffed either.
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#13
Trogdar

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Post your list and tell us what else you have. Lots of good ideas, but no sense in going out and buying a bunch of stuff to kill one unit. You may already have what you need. Of course, mangler squigs, fanatics, and rock lobbas are good in all lists. You don't want to create a list to beat him, but beat everyone-including him. If this is a 2K game, then half of his army is in this unit. He has one mage so he throws a lot of dice at each spell. Kill the BSB, and use feedback scroll (never hurts to carry against any opponent-minus dwarfs), as he will most certainly throw all of his dice at whatever he casts. You generally have all of the advantages with the number of units you can field and hit him with.