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Orktober begins!

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#1521
Nefairius

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I'm not surprised we don't have a grot HQ, or anything since forever really. Outside of the grot tanks and mega grot tank in FW anyway. And the arachnarok for fantasy. My point is, people here have gotten ahead of themselves in regards to grots; from the writers of every codex since 3e, grots are little more than punching bags to be abused by orks.

 

There is just not a lot of interest in grots, and I can understand that because they're cowardly, stupid and weak. They aren't... fierce... in the traditional sense. And while they are cunning, they aren't portrayed as cruelly inventive like the skaven are, which is the direction wimpy little hordes need to take to be popular.

 

There is another fact to this problem too, and it's that expanding the grot roster inherently breaks the mold of what they want orks to function like. You would end up with greenskin soup, which I'm fine with, but might not be what the "designers" intend.

 

Even I don't find rebel grots incredibly compelling, and I've been collecting gobbos since the 90's when I started playing MTG as a kid. In fact, my love of goblins and greenskins is what drew my attention to 40k in the first place, so I feel like if I'm not enamored with them, there probably isn't a whole of of people who are. And I mean that as a whole army. Not as just an interesting story or a little side project unit or something.

 

If they ever decide that grots are more than fodder, they'll need to break from the rebel grot theme. Rebel grots is the only theme I think they've invented for grots, and that was for gorkamorka a million years ago. If they want to expand on grots, they'd need to just add them to existing clans or unique grot clans. Rebel grots are after all, thematically mutually exclusive with regular orks. And I don't want to hear some long dim tirade of how they aren't, or could; the raison d'etre is liberation from ork oppression. The whole theme is Bolshevik revolt. Red stars, banners etc etc. That's the theme! Bringing grot rebels and a squad of nobs together is like mixing space wolfs and thousand sons.

 

 

Grots will need to function coherently within the context of the ork mother-codex, they'll need to retconn recent lore depicting them as nearly useless, and they'll need to write them in such a way as to be compelling enough to be worth the resources to make model moulds for them.

 

Maybe they could start with something simple. Say a grot sniper unit. I'd like them as 2 models on a largish base, spotter and shooter/loader, with a very long rifle. Put the model out with a downloadable datacard, like they would with an AoS model.


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Ceterum hoc non est novum Bellum Currus!
Furthermore, we must have new War Buggies!

 


#1522
Gitkilla

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And by contrast, 8th is probably the worst experience I've ever had with 40k, with the one exception of when I managed to arrange ONE (count em) Narrative game that went sort of okay. This Codex update has hit me like a freight train. I've been angry before, but this... this is pure misery. I have never felt so depressed about the hobby in my 25 or so years in it.

 

I'm in a difficult position. I can see the obvious improvements, I can see the effort that went into the new Codex (I can also see the corporate bullshit too though). But the New Codex shits on my army completely, and contains a bleak vision of the future with 40k basically being the same as every other Big Fad Company Wargame: constantly prattling around for the perfect mix between synergy and competitive meta balancing, with a slow stagnation of hobby and creativity in favour of pursuing the competitive atmosphere. Where every kit is bought as a kit, with no options, no customisation, and any conversions are essentially window dressing and nothing else. I'm not sure why GW is so determined to be like the likes Privateer Press or Wyrd Games in this regard. Especially as those companies put out decent rulesets with actual mechanics.

 

I wanted to like this Codex, but it has too many deal-breakers. The people on the forum I talk to privately have been advising me not to be rash about things. So I'm taking a break. I was waiting to see if Codex Orks would save 8th Edition for me and I have my answer.

 

No.

 

I'm going to try and find a way to enjoy the hobby, maybe I can get a few people to indulge me with the one thing I sorta like about 8th (Narrative mode) but this Codex has drawn a line in the sand of several things I am now at loggerheads regarding GW. If anybody thinks that somehow disagreeing with GW and opting for one of the easy platitudes (such as Playing Open or Narrative with whatever I like) is somehow going to be sustainable in the long term (beyond a few years or so), you are fucking naive. So these things are basically a breaking point. I'm now soul searching whether or not there is a single point in me fighting any of these: Ork Boyz on 32mms are ridiculous (no, don't bother arguing, you're wrong); the bases the new buggies are on are entirely needless; I can and will convert my models and I DON'T GIVE A FUCK IF GW DOESN'T SELL THOSE OPTIONS OR NOT; I actually have the balls to talk about Ork fluff without artificial uncertainty (I also seem to be able to communicate how Sporing and Resonance works, whereas these dipshits decided just to pretend they don't exist or are merely one of a myriad of rival theories they don't bother to mention and the few they do are INFINITELY SHITTIER); I have models I still will use whether GW allows Indices or not; Gretchin are as valid as part of a clan as Orks are, seeing as they care about them MORE.

 

I must be losing the plot because I finally know how Scarpia felt. I am on the verge of going "FUCK IT" and selling everything.

 

I also don't give two shits if any of our apologists on here likes the New Codex. No shit. Like there was any other possible outcome.

 

I'm pretty underwhelmed by this book. I know to some extent, that's misfortune, but GW have featured how many Rebel Grot armies or conversions in White Dwarf? Somehow assuming that they couldn't have guessed that maybe making Gretchin Non-Kultur would have pissed us off... just a tad. And don't tell me it's for balance reasons. You can tell me all about balance when GW make Knights with Custodes/Guard/Both NON META. Not before.

 

So yeah, now I have that off my chest, I'm gonna take a break, keep half an eye on the forum and play a fuck tonne of X-Wing. If I have the slightest urge to bother with any more Ork Hobby (not that there's much point to that these days) you guys will be the first to know.

 

So this is a sort of farewell (this is probably best for a few people, I'm about one step off being spectacularly savage) but I'll keep looking in. I'm stoked some people are really happy with the Codex, but the planets didn't align for me. And I'm more than done waiting around for them to. I think this edition has probably shown that GW is determined to move away from people like me as a principle audience, so now is a good time to look at other things, and I can lodge my protest with my lack of spending (and for all the pointlessness of such a gesture, at least it is principled and logical). This has been the worst 12 months of my hobbying life, not gonna lie. In addition to finding 8th pure tedium, I lost the great local Staffer Manager I used to praise so much on here (he's going on to better things), he got replaced by the most jobsworthian of Staffer types, AoS Mk.2 is not so much an improvement as a doubling down of annoying mechanics; Newcromunda SUCKS, the Delaques (my go to gang) are the ugliest models I have ever seen, and this Codex gives Grots the shaft yet again. I also lost Big Gun teams (and no, that Index doesn't count, children, it's going), of which I have 5 teams; for me, this Codex is probably worse for my army and hobby tastes than the 7th Edition Ork Codex. Thus the wisest thing to do is continue to do what I've more or less done for the past 6 months and post very little, if anything. Try not to party too hard.

 

P.S. No, I don't know about Waaagh Meets at the moment. TBH I'm trying not to think about it.

 

As much as I like parts of the new book I will have to agree that the direction they are heading is scarry for my vision of the hobby.

The whole index deal is pretty much a bad excuse when they could have put the rules in the codex, it's pretty obvious that they want to take away the ability to customise your army and as somebody who always liked converting that sucks. My big mek can only come in mega armor because they have no model and if I take the index option (which will probably be gone at some point) I cannot even take a big shoota for him, even if the renamed meks in the loota/burna squads and even basic boyz can. That part of taking controll away from what a player wants to bring to the table doesn't only conflict with the fluff but also just sucks. And even if I like the competitve side of the game you cannot tell me that it's so hard to keep some options while still shipping a balanced experience, it's just not true.

They just want to water their game down so you buy a box of models and build them in the one pose they were intended to be build, basically out of touch with their "fanbase" of people who want to have unique models. Stripping those options also made things disappear that people already made models for and the open play rules are pretty much a meme since nobody I ever talked to plays open and very few narrative.

 

We might be in a pretty good spot right now (minus some bullshit with gretchin rules and looted tanks) but once the index disappears a lot of models are gone and some existing models can only be armed with a single piece of equipment all of a sudden.

I know that friends will not stop me to bring those things or use grots with clan rules but the game really didn't need to head into this direction if you ask me.


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Metal elitist & into game/level design.


#1523
Madda Mek

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I like to call it "Disney business model"

 

We don't want get little Timmies upset about not having enough plastic parts to make their Ork models, right Boyz ha-ha?



#1524
Dim_Reapa

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If they ever decide that grots are more than fodder, they'll need to break from the rebel grot theme. Rebel grots is the only theme I think they've invented for grots, and that was for gorkamorka a million years ago. If they want to expand on grots, they'd need to just add them to existing clans or unique grot clans. Rebel grots are after all, thematically mutually exclusive with regular orks. And I don't want to hear some long dim tirade of how they aren't, or could; the raison d'etre is liberation from ork oppression. The whole theme is Bolshevik revolt. Red stars, banners etc etc. That's the theme! Bringing grot rebels and a squad of nobs together is like mixing space wolfs and thousand sons.

 
A long tirade? Oh I wrote that years ago. That is not to say I don't agree with at least some of what you say, but you may need to break out Gorkamorka again. The raison d'etre for Rebel Grots on Angelis was not getting tags (not being able to join the waaagh, essentially). They fought back, not to be free, but to be included. Grots always want the same thing: they want to feel like in their own little way, they are included. They don't exactly expect gratitude, but they feel they are owed certain things, and joining in with the fighting is one of those things. When the Grots were going to be left behind, they rebelled. I estrapolated in my own fan musings that basically Grots want to feel appreciated, and being kicked or bullied is part of that. What Grots hate is being ignored or being dismissed. Rather ironic that this is basically GW's attitude to Grots in general.
 
A Rebel Grot force wouldn't fit within the Ork Codex, unless as an appendix with some serious restrictions. But even then, we Rebel Players find clever ways to include many units: MANz, Boyz, etc are in my army and no Ork model in sight. But GW have acknowledged it as more widespread in fluff. I don't personally think most Grot Rebellions would last to amount to much, but that playerbase has played with the idea and it's a big universe out there. Why the fuck not? We have Spess Muhreenz who ride wolves into battle and Space Elves that make armies from tortured corpses. I think Rebels can join that.
 
Still, if Rebels don't appeal, there's always Gretchin Bandits. They have better equipment, armour, and they're generally nastier. They're a bygone of Rogue Trader, but we're getting a lot of that back at the moment. Just seems short sighted to restrict it just to Imperials and the odd "nod" in the Ork Codex.
 
Important Gretchin have existed, and they've been systematically expunged. I just think GW doesn't want the Goblin comparison to happen. Frankly I just think their writers lack the imagination or ability to make those characters work now alongside the beast. So I don't blame Grots. I blame Orks for becoming such a stupid meme. It wouldn't take much to bring Makari or Fixit back. I did it in one day.
 
When I wrote my Rebel fandex, I tried to give Rebels a bit more depth and variety, to imagine what those societies were like. I may or may not have succeeded, but I don't actually think it takes much to make Grots fit that without any major retcons. For one thing, Orkoid potential is untapped via successful and successive aggression, so I've never had any doubt that Rebel Grots, free from limitations on potential aggression would toughen up and get more sophisticated. To a point anyway.

 

The easiest way to imbue Gretchin with some character, or to let Rebel Grot players some creative freedom? Let them access Kultur. It really is that simple. Most Rebel players make use of Ork HQs already (or use Guard, and I'd rather have more Rebel players using our Codex than one that fits much less fluffily than ours does) and just use creative means to create fun armies.

 

I don't think there was much point excluding Grots from Kultur at all. But that's the main deal-breaker for me anyway. Using Gretchin as a force would just be boring with this Codex. And as I said, the balance argument is just bollocks. It's just a shitty attitude to Grots and that can be the "design" "philosophy" but I don't care for it. And I cleaned that last bit up.

 

P.S. It's Gretchin, not Gretchins or Gretchinz. Just putting that out there since that shitty card game was released.



#1525
Nefairius

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The raison d'etre for Rebel Grots on Angelis was not getting tags (not being able to join the waaagh, essentially). They fought back, not to be free, but to be included. Grots always want the same thing: they want to feel like in their own little way, they are included. They don't exactly expect gratitude, but they feel they are owed certain things, and joining in with the fighting is one of those things. When the Grots were going to be left behind, they rebelled.

 

That is what I had in mind when I said liberation from ork oppression, in addition to a vague notion of grot proletariat rebellions elsewhere for reasons other than tickets, in general  rising up after getting kicked down too hard. 

 

I'm not invested in rebel grots, but from my point of view as it were, from the ork aristocracy, there's no negotiating with rebel scum. Beat on them until they get in line or die. Or both. They're just grots. So if I put myself in the shoes of a revolting grot (and boy, aren't they?) I'd say to myself: we need to kill every ork oppressor. They're still simple, brutal creatures after all.

 

I sort of agree that they don't want orks to be orks & grots ala fantasy, but at the same time I can glance over at TOMB KINGS IN SPACE!!! Maybe consistency is just something I appreciate? But I doubt they spent much time thinking about that. Grots are for them little more than a footnote.

 

I can only imagine they denied grots kultur as a thematic touch, I can't really see any balance reason they wouldn't have kultur.

 

And as far as I'm concerned, the proper spelling and pluralization of gretchin is boot magnet!  :whip 


Ceterum hoc non est novum Bellum Currus!
Furthermore, we must have new War Buggies!

 


#1526
Gitkilla

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I would have liked a second troop choice with more character since we are locked to 2 entries anyways, but could be just me.


Metal elitist & into game/level design.


#1527
Madda Mek

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I would have liked a second troop choice with more character since we are locked to 2 entries anyways, but could be just me.


My Grot entry would have more options:

Rifle Grots (18" lasgun equivalent)
Melee Grots (6" pistol shot plus melee weapon for extra attack)
Stikkbomb Grots (1 in 10, they can throw multiple grenades)

And it all based on current kit. There, took me what, 3 minutes?

#1528
killercroc

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For GW to add wargear options based on the sprues, even really old things that haven't been in the game forever, it's really weird that they didn't add more weapons to Grots. We get Boyz with Tankbusta bombs because there is an arm holding one but no Grot weapons... disappointing. 



#1529
Magus Gar Kan

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I'll be curious to see where things go from here... Rebel grots, in at least one interpretation, show up in the audio drama "Prophets of Waaagh!" (Which I recommend as a fun listen for the opening alone), and while things go about as expected for the little guys, it's still an interesting couple of scenes.

While they are confined to novels and side mentions for now, it's no longer inconceivable that GW will take a serious look at bringing them out for 40k... or at least for a spinoff game.

I mean hell, they've tapped into the old 'Men of Iron' lore for Blackstone Fortress and are clearly willing to delve into formerly defunct factions or side forces: (Genestealer Cult, Custodes, etc), so all bets are off for what they decide to fill out their future releases with.

Especially when they have something like Speed Freeks on shelves. If they decide to keep it around as a side game, it's an easy excuse to release other vehicles for it... or even if it goes off shelves, throwing rules for other vehicles into white dwarf like they did with Renegade. 


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#1530
Sifi

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In regard to the options v converting shenanigannery. Does anyone know John Blanche? (As in can you speak to him) because the current way it's going his bit in WD is completely contrary to the way the game is going (that could be games, don't play much so could be wrong) Someone should give him a nudge to backslap these yoofs who came up with this idea of options = sprue. 2 teef done.

On a more +ve note, had an idea. With the index going (not now but inevitably will be) I reckon most of us have Speedfreeks which means have extra bikes, combine the front of a bike with the back of, gunna sound weird, 'the old buggy' and make a deffkilla wartrike. Still don't quite get why didn't get a plastic war bike boss though, trikes are associated with squats for me - showing my age but that's how it is.
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#1531
Badfang Brassaxe

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slap these yoofs who came up with this idea of options = sprue. 2 teef done.

Or, get the gits to make some sprues of options (boyz/kommandos/tankbustas and another for painboyz/meks/wierdboyz) - why has no-one ever thought of this before :bang