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Did boyz deserve the 1pts increase?

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147 replies to this topic

#1
Skumdreg

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I'm seeing a lot of argument online with people claiming both ways with no solid data or figures so I'm hoping we can have a discussion here using theories, comparisons and maths to determine if boyz deserve the nerf.

Few areas we could examine from what I hear online and from my own experience;
Firstly, as someone who runs slugga boyz DDD does nothing to improve my boyz. They always advance so I never get to shoot their pistols.
Secondly, aparntly boyz cost just as much as Firewarriors now... and they got a sweet 30" S5 gun!
Thirdly, almost everything that made boyz so good before also went up in price (Ghaz, boss, painboyz, kfff....)
Fourthly, my boyz never really lasted long anyway and the majority of tournaments had slow playing orks as anything more than turn 2 woukd see all their units dead.
Finally, strats didn't make any other unit go up in value in other books.

So what do we think? Debate away?

#2
FlamingDeth

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I'm fine with it. Boyz we're about the only thing that functioned properly and were appropriately priced in the index, and they got more powerful with clan traits. They're also offset by point decreases elsewhere so that even my swarm of boyz + support list got cheaper overall, and now running a mechanized list of trukkboyz is more plausible. So yeah...I wouldn't complain if they didn't get the point increase, but compared to what they got in return I think it's a fair trade.
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#3
Gitkilla

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I think with strategems available they wanted to make them a bit more expensive since people want the CPs and they are a solid unit anyways.

We got clan traits, strats that work on them, DDD (mainly for shootas) and an improved 'ere we go. I am fairly happy with the situation.

 

Point values are also by no means an objective value, just putting that out there.


Metal elitist & into game/level design.


#4
killercroc

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I think the cost up was appropriate. A constant +1 S and one of the few infantry in the game that can have a +1 A weapon, and hit on 3+ where most times last edition they would only hit on 4+ (I fought a lot of WS 4 armies). DDD I don't think was the point upgrade, but rather just a blanket army ability we got that was needed with the current edition. I mean I could be wrong and that's why they're more expensive but I don't think so. Also, depending on your point of view they didn't go up in points. in 7th Ed. 30 boyz with a boss nob with PK/BP was 220 points and now 30 boyz with a boss nob with PK is 223 points.

Seeing how everything lost the +1A on the charge boyz put out a lot of attacks at S4 hitting on 3+ compared to other armies, also since S6/7 weapons no longer wound them on 2's their survivability did go up some.

Yes things that buff them got more expensive but now you can, if Goff, have mobs of S5 boyz with 4 attacks hitting on 2+. Boyz are pretty solid now I think. 


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#5
Lexington

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I think we should also take into account the fact that other horde-style infantry may well be seeing a corresponding cost bump in Chapter Approved next month.
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#6
Nefairius

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I'm not mad about the points increase. Collectively our army is now stronger than it was with just the index. 

 

I don't think the ork boy was cost adjusted for any specific new rule or ability, although for someone like me who takes shoota boys, DDD is a very welcome change even if it -like many other things- is only situationally relevant.

 

I believe boys received a points adjustment firstly to lightly discourage spam. I know a lot of people have complained for years how cost-effective the ork boy is, and I'm inclined to think that was a consideration as well. Perhaps they were right. It stings though, because for large periods of time all that we had that "worked" was hordes of boyz. I think though, in the scheme of things we're in a better spot with more tools at our disposal, so we don't need the crutch that the slugga boy has been for so long.

 

A year from now we may all consider the price change a lot of hoopla about nothing. And to be fair, perhaps we still need that crutch, but I do believe we won't need to wait years to get our army fixed, as has been the case in the past.

 

[edit, forgot to add] Also, as Lexington says, horde armies in general might be getting points increases, and I actually am in favor of just about everything in this game getting pricer; I think I'm alone in this, the sole person who thinks to himself: man that's a lot of shit on the table, is this 1500 or 2000?


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Ceterum hoc non est novum Bellum Currus!
Furthermore, we must have new War Buggies!

 


#7
FlamingDeth

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You definitely aren't alone, at this point I've dropped my standard games down to 1k points so that people actually have to choose between what toys to bring. Positively impacts the game, for the most part, though it stings when I build a Deathwing list.
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#8
Nuck Fewton

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I think it was a good change, it doesn't crush the army style if you want a lot of boys and helps a bit with spamming hordes of them for very effective CP generation



#9
skarnir

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I would find the cost justified if other factions also received similar treatment.

 

My lack of knowledge of other codexies and points costs over editions leaves me wanting to

dig into the matter a bit more.

 

For example did panzee units that gained blade storm increase in points

prior to the cost before having it? I don't know the answer to that question, but my gut feeling with GW

and their lack of consistency in their rule sets leads me to believe more than likely not.

 

If one of you know's one way or the other feel free to chime in.

 

Also the cynic in me brings me down a path of thought that the Index was a one trick pony mainly focused on boyz spam, best way for GW to up sales would be to discourage use of those buckets of boyz you own and buy some new units that have highly convoluted and trademarked names.


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#10
Skumdreg

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I do nkt believe CA will up pts of units. We already know from the live stream they only did it because they outright said they want to discourage green tide spam.

However, this thread is more looking for if there was ither reasons so good work so far.

I hear though that even with starts and traits that mathematically with the 1pts increase boyz have got worse.

 

Edit: I'm about to go fight a 1k points game vs tin'eads today so I thought I'd bring a list that basically was just boyz and nothing else (little DS options and no protection from vehicles). A similar list destroyed the player when the orks were in index but it also had some luck:

 

basically almost 60 boyz,

warboss,

big mek MA kff,

weridboy,

10 grethcin,

waagh banner

dragsta (my new cheaper anti tank)

dakka jet. 

 

They will be evil sunz, relic will be focused on warboss and weird boy will have 2 powers. 

We'll see how this goes then!



#11
greggles

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+1 Lex.  Be perturbed if nothing is adjusted in CA.  Not much longer now.


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#12
PhillyT

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As a 7 point model?  Yes, 7 is a perfectly reasonable price.  



#13
Gitkilla

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Tbh I think the point adjustment was much more a "think twice" deal on how you build your ork army than it was a general balance act for the game, it's not like boyz were meta in competitve.


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Metal elitist & into game/level design.


#14
Skumdreg

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Okay, I played the game and got my ass whupped... Now, to be fair... I did fail a 9" charge on T1 by rolling a 1 then re rolling another 1 but after that it was just brutal... the 8 Tesla immortals did some magic dooo hicky that killed the entire 1st squad of boyz and then the warriors did the rest to the other one... Doomsday ark took out the vehicles and I rolled very poorly for a lot of them as well... 

 

From this game Orks boyz seemed super weak.... but then again, a lot of that was based on that original fail to charge... I just dislike the idea that Boyz are now the same price as fire warriors for some reason and almost double the price of a guardsman. Arguably, I wouldn't have cared if the warboss didn't go up in value and the painboy didn't go up but that's an argument in itself. Now... if the troops of other factions go up then it might settle me down but I doubt they will (especially after the devs said it was to encourage us to use other things. This itself is another argument as I hate the idea of devs telling someone their army is wrong and to play something else). 

 

Ironically, I think if I was playing snakebites I might have done better. Hahahaaa... 5++ plus 6+++ would have saved a few more of the original boyz I feel as the orks themselves had no save due to the tin'ead's -1AP faction wide trait. 



#15
warhead01

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7 points, I don't see the problem other than having to remember they are now 7 points. With the faction special rules and Clan Kultures I think 7 is acceptable. 
It's still not 8 and 9 points per model. I don't value the Internets crying over what evers at all. The new codex isn't even a month old yet.


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#16
Madda Mek

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The only things that REALLY hurt Boyz is booting out KFF Mek, not point increase. 

 

BUT look at this - for extra 10 points (as it is 1-per-10 free upgrade) You get Tankbusta Bomb, which is actually HUGE. Also, Kulturs (free FNP? 6++ and rerolls?) and stratagems which are "free" (I would argue if You play Goff You may pick :bleep ton of Slugga Skarboyz and just win by sheer number of S5 attacks), don't forget one from CA that give You extra cover if You go second.

 

Those are huge changes. Btw, small change, but You can now roll with Killsaws instead of Klaws, and those are AP-4 flat D2 instead of AP -3 and D D3.

 

I plan to build army around 1-2 big mobs and several small ones, and then rescue whatever left from them via Mob Up.



#17
leopard

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Not too fussed here, seems to me the idea is to make "Green tide" something you commit to, not something thats cheap enough to be "as well as".

 

The basic Ork boy is no better than he was, the change is the clan traits and strategems, given we have ways to boost strength and armour in ways that used to cost points, and can now do so for "free" using CP and only when it matters, plus the changes to how we re-roll charges etc the +1 doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

Would be nice to see similar adjustments in CA for other armies but can live either way (though peeved if other stuff gets cheaper). TBH the game would benefit from all basic infantry going up in cost and the rest being re-scaled, gives more space at the lower end which the game would benefit from.



#18
Nefairius

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Also the cynic in me brings me down a path of thought that the Index was a one trick pony mainly focused on boyz spam, best way for GW to up sales would be to discourage use of those buckets of boyz you own and buy some new units that have highly convoluted and trademarked names.

 

This is a tried & true technique repeated for years on end. It is not however, always the case, and in this case I don't think it is more than a contributing factor in the decision of where boys are priced.

 

As a former fish'ead player, I actually feel just fine with boys and firewarriors being the same price. In fact, I think boys are still the better soldier over-all even at the same price. I know that can be a hard pill to swallow for any ork player here who has watched their boys get mowed down by a volley of pulse rifle fire, but having been on the opposite end too, let me say from the fish'ead perspective, watching a mob of boys blast your warriors or kroot to bits, or steamroll them off the table on the charge effortlessly, and then beat up your crisis suits too?- you ask yourself "are these things for real?"

 

 

Okay, I played the game and got my ass whupped... Now, to be fair... I did fail a 9" charge on T1 by rolling a 1 then re rolling another 1 but after that it was just brutal... the 8 Tesla immortals did some magic dooo hicky that killed the entire 1st squad of boyz and then the warriors did the rest to the other one... Doomsday ark took out the vehicles and I rolled very poorly for a lot of them as well... 

 

From this game Orks boyz seemed super weak.... but then again, a lot of that was based on that original fail to charge... I just dislike the idea that Boyz are now the same price as fire warriors for some reason and almost double the price of a guardsman. Arguably, I wouldn't have cared if the warboss didn't go up in value and the painboy didn't go up but that's an argument in itself. Now... if the troops of other factions go up then it might settle me down but I doubt they will (especially after the devs said it was to encourage us to use other things. This itself is another argument as I hate the idea of devs telling someone their army is wrong and to play something else). 

 

Ironically, I think if I was playing snakebites I might have done better. Hahahaaa... 5++ plus 6+++ would have saved a few more of the original boyz I feel as the orks themselves had no save due to the tin'ead's -1AP faction wide trait. 

 

I'm not sure what you can draw from that game if you're saying you flubbed your critical rolls.

 

I'm a bit rusty with my tin'eads (hmm, feels like there is a pun in there to make) but immortals with tesla carbines are particularly good at killing ork boys; IIRC tesla weapons can generate additional hits on 6's. If there is a strategem or something that gives them extra hits or re-rolls, maybe that too


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Ceterum hoc non est novum Bellum Currus!
Furthermore, we must have new War Buggies!

 


#19
killercroc

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I think the difference in ability compared to points is more obvious when you compare what phases a unit is more successful. If you have two units, one good at shooting while the other is good at combat, the one that is shooty is going to be better more turns during the game and have more flexibility. Whereas the one that's good in combat is only good once it can finally reach combat, and typically you have to dedicate more resources to ensure it reaches combat. 

A Firewarriors is 1 shot at 30" 2 at 15" so it can start shooting turn 1. with a 24" gap between the armies it will take an Ork Boy until turn 3 to get into combat (less if evil sunz and a warboss is nearby but just looking at generals). So that means the Ork has to go through and survive 3 turns of the Firewarriors doing something before he gets to retaliate all for the same points cost. Even further the Firewarrior can move backwards and fire or be up in a ruin and fire to go all game without being assaulted.

So yes even though they are the same cost and they're better in different ways I'd say the unit that is good at shooting beats out the unit that's good in combat. 

Having a bad charge roll and having a unit or more taken out because of it shows the vast difference in effectiveness between shooting and combat in this game. So either pure combat units must be cheaper than pure shooting units, or you must place enough LoS blocking terrain that the shooting unit cannot shoot every round or be limited in their target selection. 



#20
leopard

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I think the difference in ability compared to points is more obvious when you compare what phases a unit is more successful. If you have two units, one good at shooting while the other is good at combat, the one that is shooty is going to be better more turns during the game and have more flexibility. Whereas the one that's good in combat is only good once it can finally reach combat, and typically you have to dedicate more resources to ensure it reaches combat. 

A Firewarriors is 1 shot at 30" 2 at 15" so it can start shooting turn 1. with a 24" gap between the armies it will take an Ork Boy until turn 3 to get into combat (less if evil sunz and a warboss is nearby but just looking at generals). So that means the Ork has to go through and survive 3 turns of the Firewarriors doing something before he gets to retaliate all for the same points cost. Even further the Firewarrior can move backwards and fire or be up in a ruin and fire to go all game without being assaulted.

So yes even though they are the same cost and they're better in different ways I'd say the unit that is good at shooting beats out the unit that's good in combat. 

Having a bad charge roll and having a unit or more taken out because of it shows the vast difference in effectiveness between shooting and combat in this game. So either pure combat units must be cheaper than pure shooting units, or you must place enough LoS blocking terrain that the shooting unit cannot shoot every round or be limited in their target selection. 

 

what was that historical research that compared melee weapons to firearms and concluded a basic rifle is hundreds of times more dangerous that the sword?

 

same thing here, a ranged weapon in 40k has a much larger threat radius typically and is essentially impossible to avoid since you can hardly screen units in the current rules - where as assault units can be shut out reasonably easily, in the short term.