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Remember when GW said...

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#61
Dim_Reapa

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Thanks to everyone for being honest.

 

But (usually) once you start posting your critiques, I'm done with that thread. Before 8th, I stopped visiting these forums entirely because I felt most threads ended up with a critique. I've been a lurker for a long time, and I hadn't played 7th edition since, I think, the Harlequin release. But I still liked to hobby, and read up on forums. I may find your critiques strong, but I've just got no interest in being negative about this hobby. Call it being naive, foolish, or even dumb, but the current state of 40k is enough for me to enjoy the game. I don't need perfect, I just need enjoyable. And I'm willing to forgive GW's previous decade-plus of anti-consumer actions and exploitations.

 

Now this, makes me feel bad. I find it sad that I end a thread for you. That makes me want to do it less, because I don't deliberately set out to wreck people's experiences. To an extent I can't help myself, I find critique very easy. I can at least understand people who want to avoid that or ignore it. I get that completely. But people who go out of their way not just to criticise me, but to insult me and harass me, do not make me feel bad. They just annoy me, destroy any respect I could have for them, or anything they post, and there is no way that I would ever do anything they expressly wished me to do that I didn't already or had done for someone else. If that was the effort, it is the most stupid and backward way of going about it. Which is why I doubt any good intentions on their part.

 

As another member said privately to me yesterday, we're a small community now. It's hard to not rub shoulders. It's important that we manage that decently. I could try to dial down my cynical ways, but if I'm just going to get two arseholes pestering me anyway, I don't see much point in doing my half, if they are unwilling to do theirs. I also don't see why I should have to conform to some pointless conformity, just to get two people off my back. Especially when they're not very good at arguing and all they actually have is accusations and assurances that they know more about me than I do. Spreading lies about how I completely hate the hobby, just because they dislike my priorities and my tone.

 

They've made this harder than it ever needed to be. I am entirely driven by logic and reason. I respond to both. But they have lost theirs, in an utterly pointless vendetta, when they could have just asked me to stop, or cut down, or include stuff a bit more positive. I'd actually respond to that. But instead, and this is the bit that infuriates me, they would rather waste your time, by making the atmosphere actually toxic, just to play tone enforcers for a forum they barely add to. That is even worse for everyone else than anything I do alone. So how is that remotely a fucking improvement? Especially when one other user says they stop reading a thread when I start critiquing and that actually bothers me?

 

This whole back and forth has been a complete waste of time. I'm just not prepared to lose to the likes of them, and honestly I think I come out of it looking better than they do. That's not saying much. But to be honest, this isn't a popularity contest. I do what I'm good at. I wish I was more active in somewhere like the Mek's Garage, but it's taken me a long time to do much building for Orky stuff (I've mostly been working on AoS/Non-GW projects, as those games have made me more happy than 40k has, plus, I take awful photos). I wish recent Ork Fluff changes hadn't damaged my writing mojo and slowed down my writing of and about fluff down to a crawl. I wish 8th Edition had been more inspiring, instead of looking like more of the same.

 

Does that mean I should quit? No, I still have hope. 7th made me ready to quit. It was awful. The worst wargame I have ever played by a massive margin. It slowly and increasingly made me angrier and angrier. I'd predicted a lot of the worst of it, but what saddened me is my biggest failure at prediction was the inclination to support Phil Kelly writing another Ork Codex, as our 7th Ed book came out and was awful (and he'd been the principal writer). The one time I tried to be positive, I was wrong. I stopped getting my hopes up at that point, and I started to not care, because what was the point? But GW did then start to improve, and this is exactly what I (and everybody else) wanted to happen. So I reversed my plans, changed my mind (I can do that, ya know, what with being a sentient human being) and strapped in for 8th, hoping it would be good. It hit, and it's... okay. Well, at least that is a massive improvement over dire, so I decide to give it a year. I see things that fill me with hope (most factions have a few things going for them, even if some have more in-game advantages than they should) and some things that fill me with dread (stripped down rules is easier on the writer, and the setup is basically a factory starting pack for maximum control over individual power levels of units, which for a company that sells miniatures and likes newer ones to sell better, will be a big temptation for shenanigans). I figured, given their history, that approaching the future of GW with a large amount of weighted cynicism and concern would not be a controversial stance to take. Evidently, I was wrong. Even though GW themselves have admitted fault by their own actions as part of a rebranding initiative designed to get fans back on side. Apparently what I am supposed to do is buy this immediately.

 

If you think they've done enough so far, more power to you. I'm not going to criticise you for wanting to give GW the benefit of the doubt. That's a reasonable choice to make: even if I find it a little naïve, I can at least appreciate the good intentions behind it. I may express my concerns openly, but it does not mean I view everyone else's perspectives as nonsense. I have my own barometer for when I'm prepared to trust Games Workshop, and it's definitely not when they make a daft corporate joke that makes fun of over a decade of awful customer relations, poor product decisions and awful, awful writing. But that's just me. I want to see more Codices, and I care about the Ork one the most. Because of course I do. Even if I quit 40k, I still love Orks. I'd still play Gorkamorka, I'd still keep my Ork Model collection, because I care too much about it. I've always loved the models. I never fault them. When people were bitching about the Corteaz model back in the day, the only thing I had to say was that I regretted that they hadn't made it more like a conversion a staffer had done that was bang on with the artwork. I can't critique visuals. My standards are still quite high, but GW have hardly ever fallen below those standards. We never talk about models, so the one area where I would unanimously come as close to bleating as I can get, never gets discussed. I have to rely on my pleasure for building and converting, but it's been slow getting back into it. I've only very, very recently started building Ork stuff again, and that's down to my own writing, not GW's. I've been writing a 8th Ed Freebootas Codex for the Clanz Projekt on the quiet, and that's made me want to build Freeboota stuff like Flash Gitz, Rokkers and Madboyz.

 

GW can never be exactly what I want, because the company I loved as a youth was not a corporate, shareholder-controlled company. It can never go back to what it was. I've moved past that, naturally, but I still have high expectations. High ones because I know they're achievable. I'm not going to say GW doesn't have a difficult job, but they have the resources and brand drive that they should be able to make them happen. 7th Edition was enough of a disaster to rock their world. They should know that they need big changes, and so far, we haven't had much of that. A lot of it takes a while to set up, and so I am prepared to wait, but at the end of the day, this is still the same company that put out Failcast, that fixed their export costs, that hired Mat Ward, that removed writing credits to avoid scrutiny and boycotts, that had Black Library deny the existence of Canon, and that ultimately ignored the fans for so very, very long. It's still fresh in my memory. I doubt I'm the only one. My hope is those days never return again, but I'm not naïve enough to expect that to be true.

 

I'm divided on how to proceed. Because I don't want these two to win. Because they've burned all the bridges. If I made an effort to be less negative, it'd be for others, not for them. So I'll try it, on the understanding that they don't bother me. If they do, fuck it, I'll go back to my old ways. Because one thing must be made clear. I wouldn't do this for them if they were the only two members left on this forum besides me. But for people like toaae, I'd be prepared to try.


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#62
PhillyT

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If you're looking at it as someone winning while another losing, that's not really the way I look at things. Nobody wins when there is an internal conflict on a forum or in life really. All anyone can do is find a way through that's livable. You don't have to change anything. Like I said, you be you. Every forum needs a variety of members and opinions.

If you feel like you need to adjust your posting style, do it for you and not for anyone else. I intentionally backed off my own overly critical posting style on the forum I am most active on. It was a personal choice because I found myself becoming mired in that negativity. I knew it was grating on some but even worse, I was finding that my unconstructive or overly aggressive style was resulting in some people not bothering to engage with the meat of my commentary. They basically ignored those posts and moved on.

#63
laughterofgods

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Full disclosure Dim, I often only make it through about half of your epic posts.  However, I read all of the most recent one in this thread.  I think it was probably one of the most thoughtful and least cynical posts I have seen you make in some time.  I think perhaps your cynicism (which I am sympathetic too) often gets in the way of the argument you are trying to make.  I would never encourage you to dial it back, but I would encourage you to think about the effect that such cynicism has on your ability to be persuasive.  



#64
Da_Taktishun

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I know I'm new here but I feel I should toss in my two cents because I've seen this plenty of times in other places.

"'I'm divided on how to proceed. Because I don't want these two to win. Because they've burned all the bridges. If I made an effort to be less negative, it'd be for others, not for them. So I'll try it, on the understanding that they don't bother me. If they do, fuck it, I'll go back to my old ways. Because one thing must be made clear. I wouldn't do this for them if they were the only two members left on this forum besides me. But for people like toaae, I'd be prepared to try."

This right here kills communities. No ifs, ands, or buts. Once you decide to be an ass so the other side wont feel like they won (whatever there is to be won in an internet slapfight over little plastic soldiers), you are actively bringing down the community out of spite. Please tell me what could possibly be gained from such a thing, I really want to know. Is it your pride? Is your pride so fragile that people disagreeing with you can shatter it? I'm sure you honestly believe your criticisms are helping people, but people either already know or will refuse to see things for what they are, so  why bother doubling down when people call you out? Just relax and focus more on the aspects you enjoy.



#65
Dim_Reapa

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It's not about winning. It's about principles that matter. It's really as simple as that. And yeah, you are new here. If the people who "called me out" were consistent, or even setting a better example, I'd understand. But they really aren't. GW is in this situation because of how badly they screwed up. I don't need to double down. I was right. No ifs, no buts.
 
GW are far from the "Newer Better" brand they are attaching to themselves. Maybe they'll get there. Nobody is helped by believing they are already there. And no forum survives by being a singular extreme of anything. It benefits from multiple perspectives, as PhillyT says, and see, we can agree on things on occasion.
 
I'm still going to call out GW for stupid shit. I'm still going to critically analyse stuff. What makes forums work is a productive community. So I'm going back to work. Working on threads that improve the forum. People are welcome to join me. But I'm not 100% positive on the future of 40k and GW. They're promising a lot, and have not delivered as much as they've promised. We'll all wait and see. If things get better that is better for everyone, and the atmosphere will improve.
 
It's the sorry state of Orks that fucked this community. That's it. That's why most of the Bosses left, that's why just the fanatic nutcases are left. New blood is welcome, of course, but New 40k is in early days. Who knows what will happen to Orks and the Ork community. Hopefully good things, but let's not be naïve. There's a long road to go down and so many pitfalls.

P.S. I'm not denying my faults as a part of it. But the alternative is sending a message that it's fine to harass people until they acquiesce to your wishes.

#66
Moe Dakka

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 GW is in this situation because of how badly they screwed up. I don't need to double down. I was right. No ifs, no buts.
 

 

What situation is that? 



#67
Dim_Reapa

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A massive corporate rebrand, a fired CEO (Kirby) and a massive customer relations project (Warhammer Community et al) in order to win back a tonne of lost customers and to win over dubious ones (lost predominantly through bad writing and PR). A lot of the people on here and elsewhere are finding it hard to trust GW again. So far the changes have been very positive. But we've got a long way to go yet. I'm not yet prepared to trust them. I am however largely happy with the changes.
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#68
Blakkreaper

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Well I think that says more about you than about he reality as things currently stand.
The ork index list is the most competitive orks have ever been. Even without a book the orks placed terrifically in the final events for August. For top three finishes is really good considering how few ork armies

We're doing alright, but this isn't the most competitive Orks have been. I remember editions where we might not have been top tier, but a good list in a savvy players hands would top major tournaments. And then there was that blink of an eye late 4, early 5 where we were the list to beat.

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#69
Moe Dakka

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A massive corporate rebrand, a fired CEO (Kirby) and a massive customer relations project (Warhammer Community et al) in order to win back a tonne of lost customers and to win over dubious ones (lost predominantly through bad writing and PR). A lot of the people on here and elsewhere are finding it hard to trust GW again. So far the changes have been very positive. But we've got a long way to go yet. I'm not yet prepared to trust them. I am however largely happy with the changes.

 

 

Albeit anecdotal, I've found the naysayers are by far outnumbered by those who are happy to waste a few hours chucking dice.  The stock price increase is proof of this as well.  I was heavily involved in the GT scene back in the late 90s to mid aughts, and rage-quit when GW bullied online retailers using IP as a justification.  Whether GW screws up again is out of my control.  Cynicism is not criticism.  IMO, you are at your best when you are being critical, and I learn from your posts.  I find your cynicism to be toxic, however, especially as you've repeated the same mistrust ad nauseum.    



#70
Dim_Reapa

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A justified mistrust, but okay, the ad nauseam element can be dealt with. That's at least an achievable goal.

 

Although on the anecdote front, well yeah, hang around fans and you'll find lots of fans. Universal support for the simple pleasures is not a problem, per se, but the Apologists very, very likely deeply prolonged how long this regeneration and improvement took, and they did that largely by making excuses for GW and attacking critics. The militancy I developed during that period in which I was vindicated is very difficult to shake off. I'm hoping GW can help me with that. But I'm not going to expect it. 



#71
Moe Dakka

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A justified mistrust, but okay, the ad nauseam element can be dealt with. That's at least an achievable goal.

 

 

AAAWWWWW

C'mere, you...BIG HUG


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#72
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I have seen some very cult like behaviour from gw fans I have to admit... I could criticise one thing and people will jump on me! Like with the price hikes lately. I was trying to explain how the prices are going beyond a simple hobby and I had people ganging up telling be I needed to just stop smoking and eating because the prices are fair and I just need more money! (I don't even smoke! They just assumed I spend a lot of money on random things... and even if I did, what does it matter to them if I spent my money on other things than gw? )
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#73
PhillyT

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It is hard to see the price and creep from the inside.  Having said that, as a hobby its only about middling in terms of cost.  My firearms and shooting habit is exponentially worse!  Both Warhammer and the gun hobby do benefit from the fact that they don't "decay" over time.  I have friends who pay pricey golf memberships or dump $100 for a round to play.  That is gone after the play is over while a Bloodthrister or Gorkanaut bought with that same money sticks around.

 

:biggrin



#74
greggles

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Could be worse, your second hobby could be cars...


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#75
laughterofgods

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/me distributes fruit snacks to everyone in the hopes of building community.


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#76
Dim_Reapa

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I find pricing to be a subjective thing, ultimately. It has to be personal, either it justifies itself to you or it doesn't. There is no rock solid argument that justifies GW's pricing either way, implying it's cheap or expensive. I mean sure, it helps with perspective, but at the end of the day, the price is either worth it to you or not. The only issue I have with paying the price is the increasing dogmatism of newer kits. It is rather offputting to a hobbyist like me, no matter the little touches I can do to address it, but I find it a big problem. I have a pretty large Fyreslayers army for AoS, and I also have a sizeable chunk of Storm Troopers (with their shit latin name). In both cases their main kits are based around 5 pretty much identical poses and a series of options, and in some cases with a lot of GW's new kits, these options are so convoluted that you build them without the instructions on your own peril.

 

Sure, they look nice, but when you have an army that comprises of 60-100+ of the buggers, you are going to get tired of minor variations around 5 very easy to spot poses. That undermines value for me. I've always seen plastic as the medium of choice, where if you want different options, they should be easy to apply. I think GW's biggest rip off is character Clam Packs, that are so riddled with a lack of options that GW has gutted options in game just so they don't need to provide them, irrespective of the modelling talents of most of the people playing. I dread the loss of some of the kits that I make use of, simply because I know that if they get replaced, abeit they will look better, they will be much less flexible and deeply static.

 

And as I'm ranting, what is the obsession with 32mm bases? And the spread leg poses on certain models to justify it in some cases: Khorne Bloodbound leap to mind. It's like a form of inflation, where GW artificially increase the size of their models so you buy new stuff (line up a Fyreslayer with a Dwarf and you'll see what I mean). I still love GW's models. In terms of consistency with aesthetics, plastic quality and detail they are unmatched. There are nicer models out there, but they're invariably not plastic, there's much less you can do with them, and you have to wait longer to get them. Usually.

 

In spite of all this, I don't mind the price. I buy from a lot of miniatures companies, because I'm a despicable hoarder of nice things, and GW are not that much more expensive than everyone else, and in some cases better value, at least in terms of miniatures. Games like Dark Age or Warmachine/Hordes charge a fortune for a small pack of resin or metal miniatures that are not up to snuff even with modern sculpting, let alone aesthetics. I would still argue that Privateer Press, creator of Warmahordes have a much better understanding of rules writing and doing it well, but their culture is one of brutal powergaming and it's not for me. Of course there are also other companies that make stunning miniatures. Most of the rivals tend to be fiddly, such as Corvus Belli (Infinity) and Wyrd Games (Malifaux) with truescale models that will make you curse the universe.

 

Miniatures are expensive for this sort of thing. That's a fact. There are miniature companies out there that do things cheaper, but you quickly realise why. I've tried a lot of alternatives, especially when the rules are really bad, and I always end up coming back. Their models are really good, although they do need to find some way of making their kits less dogmatic. I suspect they're ultimately there to kill off the Third Party Model trade, but it's just going to hurt the hobby. 



#77
The Northern Ork

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Well after personal insults and attacks.. I guess ill just quit this forum. I can't stand ppl making attacks like this on a gaming forum and judging me personally instead of actually having a conversation. Also the fact that you just clearly attacked the spelling mistakes shows what kind of person you are, did you ever stop to think, hey wait, maybe he isnt american, and that english is not his native tongue. But nah.. that would be critical thinking.... You did do some good, I hope your book comes out, but as a person on this forum you've just made it toxic in almost any thread you enter. Everyone is saying it, we skip over your rants once someone disagrees because we all know you are just gonna go for a quick kill. You must have a lot of time on your hands to write on this forum. And I personally hope to never cross you at any event ever.

 

Before the crash of the original forums of the Waagh I was a regular poster, but life, the fact they lost all the info and conversations, kinda threw me off. I've been back less then a year really. But its ok, you're Dim right... who gives a "$?& what everyone else thinks.....

 

My two teef

 

TNO 


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#78
Dim_Reapa

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You literally did this to other people first. If you can't handle their responses, don't start slagging matches. Also, everyone isn't saying it. And I'd committed to cutting it down anyway, but whatever. 
 
You are an outright hypocrite. From the start. Someone who has attacked not just me for "whining" and now you're talking about how we can't have conversations. We could so easily have done so. You opted not to. Your part in this is as big as mine (if not more so), and yet the only person who apparently needs to change is me.
 
Incidentally, spelling errors, for something you could copy paste from the left? Come on man, it's not like you're having to translate it. It's next to my avatar. It's the same issue as some of your other attacks. You show little sign of reading my posts, demonstrating that you don't care what I think and you've already made your mind up. That's not how a discussion works, is it.

#79
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Well, this is an interesting thread to read as one of my first after being away for almost a decade.

 

I'm still technically on the mod team, but I don't want to start throwing my weight around yet while I'm still getting a feel for this place. I'm just going to lock this thread, because it seems unlikely that anything positive will come out of it. I'm not going to increase anyone's warning meter or hand out any bans, yet.

 

Anyone with an opinion on this thread feel free to PM me.


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