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First list new army book. Thoughts?


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10 replies to this topic

#1
striogi

striogi

    Kickin' Grot

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  • Army Name:Waaagh Guzzsnikk
Roughly based on my previous army, but with some additions that are just cool.

2500 points (well, 2499 anyway)
Lords: 497 points, 20%
Ork Warboss 237
Boar, Shield, Armor of Destiny, Dawnstone, Berzerker Sword.

Black Ork Warboss 260 (general)
Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh

Heroes: 499 points, 20%
NG Big Boss: 84
Arabyan Carpet, 2x hand weapons, Lt Armor

NG Big Boss: 105
BSB - Bad moon banner

NG Shaman: 100
Feedback scroll
Ng Shaman: 75
Dispell scroll
NG Shaman: 50
NG Shaman: 85
Level 2

Core: 1033 points, 41%
61 Night goblins: 213
full command
25 Night goblins: 105
full command
25 Night goblins: 105
full command
9x fanatics: 225

15x Spider riders: 225
full command
10x Spider riders: 160
full command

Special: 180 points 7%
4x spear chuckas: 180
Bullies

Rare: 290 points 12%
2x doom divers: 160
2x mangler squigs: 130

So, it's broken up in the following formations:

Ork boss on boar + 15 spiders.

10 spiders

NG on carpet

BO Warboss + NG BSB + 61 NGs, next to both smaller goblins.
shamans scattered amongst the goblins

the NG on carpet is there to take out or at least lock up cannons and similar heavy artillery, the boar boss is there to hit/harass enemy flanks while the big block is the anvil. Having the two smaller gobbo squads helps with extra bodies, or to lock up other units.

Things I'm Not Sure About:
1. lots of little shamans or 2 bigger shamans?? on the one hand, I like additional channeling attempts. On the other, I worry about where to put them. I'm actually thinking the big block OR as free-floating guys.
2. in the previous codex Animosity was very punishing. in this version, it seems less so. To avoid animosity, I had 3+ BO bosses of various sizes. Now I'm dropping it down to one to make absolutely certain the big block does what I want it to. What's your read? is this a reasonable expectation?
3. Has anyone used a feedback scroll? I really like the idea of letting a big spell through just to kill off a wizard. most big spells around here are either shorn up by a power scroll with 7 dice (so no dispel anyway) or are buffs that I can just avoid dealing with for a turn.

any other thoughts?

#2
striogi

striogi

    Kickin' Grot

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*bump* *has game with it tonight, desperately hopes for comments* one change I made was to remove the bad moon banner, instead taking the eternal flame standard and something like 15 more ngoblins. I also learned that using 7 dice on a casting attempt is illegal. fun times re-re-reading the core rulebook. -- I played this list against chaos warriors on Wed night actually, and surprisingly won. I think the most shocking moment was when a squad of 20-ish ngoblins got a flank charge on some warriors, took only 2 wounds, did none in return, STILL won combat AND ran them down. (woot!) of course, a little over halfway through the game I had two different miscasts happen where every model that could channel took a str 10 hit. Dealing with that twice meant every single one of my casters died. >.<

#3
Kaptun Krum

Kaptun Krum

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7 dice is potentially illegal.. I think with your NG you can roll 6 dice. Then you roll and additional dice with the NG ability. Its an exception to the rules I believe until their is a FAQ specifically stating that. I personally think that the orc warboss should be your leader. The Battle Axe guy is to vulnerable to be a general. Me personally, I'm not a fan of the army and I would dink you on sportsmanship or comp if I played against it. You only have two orc leaders and no orc units. Doesn't feel right.
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#4
striogi

striogi

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7 dice is potentially illegal.. I think with your NG you can roll 6 dice. Then you roll and additional dice with the NG ability. Its an exception to the rules I believe until their is a FAQ specifically stating that.

fair enough

I personally think that the orc warboss should be your leader. The Battle Axe guy is to vulnerable to be a general.

Funny, the Orc on a boar seems too vulnerable to me. he's lost combat and been run down more often than infantry boss.

Me personally, I'm not a fan of the army and I would dink you on sportsmanship or comp if I played against it. You only have two orc leaders and no orc units. Doesn't feel right.


Really? why?
I really like the idea of a couple orc bosses yelling at a raft of goblins and kicking them around. receive challenge from opponent? pick up goblin boss and throw it at the challenger, while the boss gets on with the slaughter.

He's a boss that's kunnin' but brutal. As such, I think other orc warbosses generally ignore him, but goblins flock to his banner because he wins. He's the kind of warboss who hands the armor of destiny to the new "warboss" and then sends him out to go get killed as the newly minted "warboss" and spiders blindly charge forward to beat their head against something. when the dust settles, he picks up the pieces, dusts off the armor and "recroots" a new "warboss"... all the while to the snickering of various goblin bosses.


I think I'd be offended by the dink against sportsmanship - I don't have any monsters, monstrous infantry, only 2 models with str 5+ melee attacks.
I can't call a waaagh!, only those two models have access to the choppa rule. the closest I come to spamming is taking the max allowed doom divers and mangler squigs.

#5
Mik McMok the Mek

Mik McMok the Mek

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dont you love that NG shaman are so cheap, even in the old rules!

When all else fails Panic
If that doesn't work...then you know you're up to your neck in it!


#6
Kaptun Krum

Kaptun Krum

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Where does the warboss on a boar go? If he is going in a unit of spider riders then yeah he's gonna bite it. If he's in that big block of night gobbos, he'll live. How are you deploying them 10 x6 or 5 x 12 or something else cause your warboss has to go on the side of the unit so he may not even get to attack at all if you have a wide formation. As far as the comp thing. Its a personal preference and of course totally subjective. I just don't feel its right to take orc leaders in a gobbo army without any orc units. The only reason you are taking them is for the Ld boost and to ignore animosity on your big unit. That's me looking at it from purely a gaming perspective. Also you have max mangler squigs, max fanatics, max doom divers, and 80 man gobbo block where you could set your general to never be hurt potentially and will always be a stubborn 9. 4 NG shamans who each get that bonus extra dice to cast. To me you don't have things that are overly like gotcha items, but lots of little things to an experienced player that would add up.
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#7
striogi

striogi

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Where does the warboss on a boar go? If he is going in a unit of spider riders then yeah he's gonna bite it. If he's in that big block of night gobbos, he'll live. How are you deploying them 10 x6 or 5 x 12 or something else cause your warboss has to go on the side of the unit so he may not even get to attack at all if you have a wide formation.

yeah, he's with the spiders - he's there to give that unit a much-needed assault boost. The foot warboss is the collector's model from Warhammer Online - the one with a shaman on his shoulder. he doesn't fit on the standard 25mm orc base, but fits perfectly on a 40mm base (with a little overlap). I count him as both a warboss and a NG shaman, so he fits in the middle of the big unit. I've yet to receive a complaint about it.

As far as the comp thing. Its a personal preference and of course totally subjective. I just don't feel its right to take orc leaders in a gobbo army without any orc units. The only reason you are taking them is for the Ld boost and to ignore animosity on your big unit. That's me looking at it from purely a gaming perspective. Also you have max mangler squigs, max fanatics, max doom divers, and 80 man gobbo block where you could set your general to never be hurt potentially and will always be a stubborn 9. 4 NG shamans who each get that bonus extra dice to cast. To me you don't have things that are overly like gotcha items, but lots of little things to an experienced player that would add up.

I see where you're coming from, but respectfully decline to agree;
There are a few more reasons I take him in the army (from a gaming perspective)
1. I need a model that hits like a ton of bricks - especially when dealing with dorfs and monsters. Goblins just aren't going to cut it.
2. being on a 40mm base and fitting into the unit means he's regularly in the fight and he ALWAYS faces more hits than a normal orc boss would in an orc unit, because a: he's the obvious weakness and b: the bigger base means more models can attack him. My opponents usually throw their own hordes at the big gobbo unit and he doesn't do too well when 3 ranks worth of fanatics decide to beat face on him.
3. I need to be able to have a unit that can occasionally take a challenge as well - feeding gobbo bosses doesn't always work out too well.

Of course, putting a black ork in a unit now isn't all that great, either- the new Animosity table can give you extra movement and encourages you to get stuck in - with a little luck, you can gain a first turn charge with with Animosity. Black orks completely exempt that and flat-out punish you for rolling animosity. Considering that it's goblins, I'm removing models instead of just taking a few hits.

See, your response ultimately illustrates the problems with scoring comp - If I were to take your suggestions and modify my list, I would essentially be making my army entirely non-functional.

Removing the orc bosses effectively kills my ability to actually pass any LD test with *any* reliability, and removes the *only* hard-hitting melee units I have.
Reducing mangler squigs and doom divers to one each, and reducing the number of fanatics I have removes the OTHER hard-hitting units I have
NG shamans getting extra dice may be much-touted as "teh awsum wai 2 git moar magix" but look - first they have to successfully cast a spell, THEN they have to roll a 5+... for the gain of a single die. Additionally, they're level 1 - with two wounds each - stupid easy to kill.

Your other suggestion is to add at least one unit of orcs to make it "feel right"... but to what end? now I've got this unit of semi-heavy infantry in the middle of it all? how easy is it to argue that it "doesn't feel right" that there's this unit of orcs surrounded by 200 goblins? well, obviously I'm trying to game the system because the horde will hold up a unit while the orcs smash into a flank and plow through a unit...

I think that you're not considering the opponent's list and options fairly... what are the detriments I'm accepting by fielding this list?

Want to beat the NG horde and kill the warboss? hit it with your own horde, and do something like 14 wounds - they're goblins, it's not like it's hard... throw in all the rest of the combat resolution and boom, there goes the unit. Additionally, with potentially 9 fanatics on the field, what are the odds they're going to start hitting my own units and doing a lot of damage? same with mangler squigs? further on them, it's not like even two mangler squigs are game breaking - so far my mangler squigs are either run over by cheap units like swarms or chaos hounds or are shot to death. All artillery can fail - the doom divers can fail so spectacularly that they damage my own units. Doom divers are an obvious target for cannons and the like - they can generally only take a single shot, but don't really have the strength to reliably take down cannons in return. putting my warboss in the middle of my horde makes him a prime target as well - not just for challenges but assassination from raft o'attacks.

Without all the fanatics, doom divers and mangler squigs, how would you suggest I deal with things like brettonian freight trains and Empire heavy cavalry? I've got to dedicate both doom divers for something like two turns PLUS one squad's worth of fanatics to reduce the unit down to something that can withstand their charge.

what about big monsters like Stegadons, Wyverns, Dragons, etc? Point to something in my army that can actually handle those kinds of threats without pointing at the fanatics, doom divers, mangler squigs and bosses. Go ahead, I'll wait...

Look, this is a wargame (I'm sure you're aware), the point of it is to build a fun, interesting army, that has the potential to win. If I'm not looking to minimize my army's weaknesses and capitalizing on its strengths, then I'm looking to lose... If the fun is in the contest, and I don't present a challenge in that contest, how is ANYONE having fun?

#8
Kaptun Krum

Kaptun Krum

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I'm not going to discuss the merits of only the two warbosses in an orc and gobbo army. You have your opinion and I have mine and both are ok. I was just trying to explain mine. I will say though that while you may be playing with that one orc warboss on foot and have yet to receive any complaints about it. From a RAW perspective you are cheating. The warboss model goes on a 25 mm base and thus would be subject to being stuck outside the unit. I understand the concept that you are doing and if we were playing a friendly game I wouldn't have an issue with it, but I could see people in a tournament having issues with it because you are effectively taking a model that under normal circumstances might not be able to participate in the fight, and modeled it so that he could.
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#9
striogi

striogi

    Kickin' Grot

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I'm not going to discuss the merits of only the two warbosses in an orc and gobbo army. You have your opinion and I have mine and both are ok. I was just trying to explain mine.

Great, what about the rest of my questions? if I change my list to make it more acceptable, how do I handle freight trains and monsters?

I will say though that while you may be playing with that one orc warboss on foot and have yet to receive any complaints about it. From a RAW perspective you are cheating. The warboss model goes on a 25 mm base and thus would be subject to being stuck outside the unit. I understand the concept that you are doing and if we were playing a friendly game I wouldn't have an issue with it, but I could see people in a tournament having issues with it because you are effectively taking a model that under normal circumstances might not be able to participate in the fight, and modeled it so that he could.

Maybe you've never seen the model in person. Under normal circumstances, if you tried to put it on a base, it STILL wouldn't be able to participate in the battle because you couldn't fit it into a unit of 25 mm bases. the model is literally 45mm wide. soo... now I can't use the model at all?

#10
Kaptun Krum

Kaptun Krum

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I own two of the models actually so I am well aware of how big he is. You asked for advice. I gave you my honest opinions on issues as I saw them. It seems you want to just do what you want to do and that's fine. I'm not here to argue.
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#11
striogi

striogi

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I own two of the models actually so I am well aware of how big he is.

You asked for advice. I gave you my honest opinions on issues as I saw them. It seems you want to just do what you want to do and that's fine. I'm not here to argue.



AND I'M STILL ASKING FOR ADVICE
So you know how big the Warboss is? how do I fit him into a mob of boyz? How do YOU fit him into a mob of boyz?

what do I do to deal with those threats without getting dinged on sportsmanship?
SERIOUSLY.

Trolls? Feh. Low init gets run over by lances, smashed by cannons.
Giants? same as trolls and super unpredictable, cut down by lances, flattened by cannons.
Orks? Low init, not particularly durable. Ok, so I get a lot of them to make the unit more durable... and then I lose a raft of points when I get run down.
Trolls and Giants MAY have enough strength to deal with the higher-T models of Stegadons and suchlike, but then again, I'm dumping 200+ points into a single one of those units and it's only a maybe.

so again, what do I do??

I'm not trying to troll or fight, I'm just trying to understand:
What your reasoning is behind dinging me for what I'm taking - I mean, if it's unfair or "doesn't feel right" then there MUST be a way to take something "more fair" or "feels right" AND can handle the threats other armies present, right?

So what do you suggest?

It's more than a little useless (and I think rude) to tell someone their list isn't that great and then REFUSE to offer alternatives...