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How can ork shooting be fixed?

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#1
Nachgal

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Orks have, since 3rd edition, been an army that hits on 5+ with its ranged weapons. This is fine, as orks have also been an army that has been capable of throwing a bucket of dice at the opponent. With enough shots you're bound to hit something.

 

8th edition did introduce a lot of modifiers though. You've got army-wide special rules that gives a -1 to hit over a certain range, you've got units that gives a protective "bubble" of -1 to hit and so on. And this is a problem for orks. Going from 5+ to 6+ effectively halves your damage output. At least locally people have really been favouring these things, and it's making a considerable part of the ork army feel very undesirable. Anything that relies on shooting is simply not going to perform well, and making a shooty ork army does not seem viable as an all-comers list. 

 

So what can realistically be done about ork shooting? Because right now that does see like a rather glaring issue with 8th edition. These modifiers impacts armies operating near the "extremes" a lot more. beakies lose 25% of their ranged damage output, 'umie loses 33% and orks 50%. 


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#2
Badfang Brassaxe

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This may well be why the 'dex is taking so long :lol

 

Basic problem is that some of these 'to hit' modifiers are stacking and it only takes two or three of them and orks are needing 7+ or even 8+ to hit, not easy on a d6 chance how many dice you're throwing. Best I've come up with so far is 'Wall ov Dakka' - for every ten or more shots fired at a single target or unit reduce the number of dice by 50% (rounding down) and add +1 to each 'to hit' dice or by 75% (rounding down) and adding +2 to each 'to hit' dice.

 

Arguably orks are such lousy shots that the 'ten or more shots' isn't strictly necessary and it could be applied to two or more shots being halved in number then adding +1 to the d6 results or four or more shots being quartered and add +2.

 

Alternatively shoot as normal but re-roll 6's needing 4+ or 5+ to hit.

 

They're all lash-ups but I'm saying nothing about the core rules.



#3
Skumdreg

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Can a grot become a warboss? Unlikely, but with time, effort and a bit of luck you might just see one.

#4
Lexington

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Pulling an idea from Kill Team, I really like the idea that all Ork shooting attacks hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers.


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#5
FlamingDeth

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Just the "6+ always hits" rule would help but that wouldn't fix it, as that's still sucking at shooting twice much as they did in 7th, not even counting the loss of templates. Combine the 6+ always hits with doubling shots when stationary and maybe that's getting somewhere. Maybe. I'm.not an expert at balance and rules so hopefully that idea isn't horribly over/underpowered.

#6
Lexington

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I dunno if that rule can be viewed entirely in isolation, then compared to 7th; there's a lot of other changes that alter the overall damage output. both singularly and relative to other armies. You're probably right that it wouldn't fix things alone, but it may well go further than it might seem - always having a chance to hit is something no other army has.


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#7
Dim_Reapa

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Except they all kinda do... It's only really us that can be rendered unable to hit through modifiers. We certainly can't throw many modifiers at them to present a distinct advantage.

I just can't understand why an abstract wound system with no ceiling can be combined with a targetting system with one. That's just sloppy. It should have been addressed in the Core Rules.

Ork shooting needs a buff. Something more than a few situational get more dice when you roll lots of dice. I still favour Waaagh as an army wide rule that buffs all kinds of units.
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#8
warhead01

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I noticed that a 6+ always hits in the new AoS. 
 


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#9
skarnir

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Quickest way to fix Ork shooting, Make it unmodifiable.

Whats that you say? Being able to hit 1/3rd of the time is OP.

ZOG OFF YA GITZ  :bleep  :dakka  :bleep


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The world is a much brighter place, when you finally pull your head out of your ass.


#10
Badfang Brassaxe

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Still not really addressing blast weapons though - can't think of any in an ork army that are even likely to make their own points back in game even if they do survive to the end of it. The fact that it doesn't matter how packed the opposing units are, it won't affect the number of potential casualties is also somewhat counter-intuitive.



#11
warhead01

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To me it's a dead issue. Yep it sucks. Get stuck in. I know, I know. But's we want's to shoots. Do that too. I lean towards a balanced army instead of either extreme. I make due because I have too. it is what it is for now. But, What I think I would like is every hit that hit's needs to be meaning full. So. maybe up the ST on shootas to 5 and up everything else as well. We may not hit much be we are likely to kill everything we hit......if they don't save. 


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#12
Wortsnagga

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+6 always hits coupled with the rule that " too much dakka is dangerous ", reroll 1's when rolling to hit if the unit is firing 20 or more shots at another unit. Should get us a few more hits without upsetting the rest of the 40k community.
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Wortsnagga

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#13
Skumdreg

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From all the advertising I have seen from gw and the posts from people it is clear the majority think Orks are cc only. I genuinely had a debate with someone on dakkadakka who didn't believe Orks love shooting (despite the forums called dakkadakka... i worry about some people). I mean half our index is shooty units so as soon as you overpriced ork shooting and made them unlikely to hit you mkae half our army useless.

Therefore, I say 5+ unmodified but only if you fire at a single target (like the dakka jet). I think that's fair as it means we could waste all our shooting on a single unit but at the benefit of always hitting it.

Also a fire twice strat wouod be nice but looking at the +6 gets 1 more crap thing we got I worry about that.
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#14
warhead01

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+6 always hits coupled with the rule that " too much dakka is dangerous ", reroll 1's when rolling to hit if the unit is firing 20 or more shots at another unit. Should get us a few more hits without upsetting the rest of the 40k community.

I could see this for shoota boys if they become a separate unit, a trade away from the green tide rule.

 

Also a fire twice strat wouod be nice but looking at the +6 gets 1 more crap thing we got I worry about that.

That's got flash gitz written all over it.

 

 

Over all I think the easiest fix is character buffs and stratagems.  
It fits in with the Big Mek/Mek concept and maybe creates a new Mek character or a tech tree for the Mek class for buffs. 

Strats are a lot less work. 


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#15
Shabbadoo

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The answer is to go back to the mechanisms that were in place when to hit modifiers were a thing. That would mean going back to 2E rules where Orks were BS 3 or better, or in 8E parlance BS 4+ and better. Adding to that, as a general rule, any natural of a 1 or 6 always succeeds or fails, regardless of any modifiers (the sole exception to that being armor save modifiers which can cause an auto-fail, but never an auto-success).  Also, blast weapons need to have bonus to hit, and have more chances to hit. These  "bast weapons of doom" that fire d6 shots...only to roll a 1...which misses...are such utter shite. Worst mechanic of 8E to be sure.  There are some horrifically problematic rules aspects to 8E, and simply returning Orks to BS 3...er...BS 4+ is only the tip of the iceberg, because that merely serves to put them functionally on par with 'umies, who pretty much suck all things as it is.  So, +1 to Ork BS and a few fundamental changes to the core rules will not just fix Ork shooting, but fix shooting in general. In 2E, shooting modifiers broke down like this:

 

-1 to hit at long range: a few weapons has this feature; notably shotguns, some pistols, grenade launchers, and primitive weapons in the main.

-2 to hit at long range: very few weapon had this feature.

+1 to hit at short range: most common weapons (i.e. lasgun, autogun, bolter, shuriken catapult, etc.) had this feature.

+2 to hit at short range: some weapons had this feature; notably most pistols.

 

Other penalties to hit, other than those based on the weapon being used, included:

 

-1 to hit for soft cover (brush, woods. light fencing, etc.)

-2 to hit for hard cover (rocks, buildings, trenches, etc.)

-1 to hit for special circumstances; includes things like chameleon scales of a lictor/cameleoline cloaks of beakie/panzee scouts (they only got the bonus if the unit didn't move), etc.

-1 to hit short range/-2 to hit long range for units that had the Stealth ability, like Striking Scorpion Exarchs/Kharandras.

 

So, the maximum penalty to hit was usually limited to -3, which could be offset by +1 by using one of the more common infantry weapons in the game and being at short range. Seeing as no unit meant to shoot had a BS of worse than 3, that meant most units would hit on a 6 or better when firing at most anything. Even still, the rules accounted for needing a 7 or higher to hit, requiring a natural 6 followed by another roll of 4+ if a 7 were needed, 5+ for an 8, and 6 for a 9.  If you needed a 10+ to hit, well now you finally just can't hit.

 

This is how the 2E Ork BS stats would translate to 8E:

 

Snotling: BS 5+

Gretchin/Ork/Warp'ead/all vehicles & artillery: BS 4+

Gretchin Champion/Nob/Runtherd/Painboy/Mek/Weirdboy/Kommando: BS 3+

Big Boss/Kaptin: BS 2+

Warboss/Nazdreg/Ghazgkhul: BS 1+

 

As 1 always misses, BS 1+ would represent being able to offset a -1 penalty to hit and still hit on a 2+ (this could similarly be applied to armor and save modifiers).

 

Yes, Orks could shoot the $#@! out of stuff back in 2E. They could do it through sheer volume of fire/blast/template usage from 3E-7E, but now they (and some others) just plain suck arse; the more expensive the unit, the more arse it sucks even.

 

So, GW went and added all of the to hit penalties back in, but then didn't have enough sense to pull their heads out of the arses and also add back in the bonuses to hit that most weapons had, and screwed over how blast weapons work.  And so there is a big problem that really can't be fixed even by just giving Orks +1 to their BS stat, though it would be a start. 8E is sort of fundamentally a $#@!-up edition. There are many things about 8E that I think are improvements over 7E, but I also think that in 8E GW has screwed up what is arguably the most fundamental phase of the game, the Shooting Phase, which is horribly bad. We'll probably get 8.5E soon enough...or just a slew of added "get-you-by" half-arse rules to band-aid things until a true 9E comes out.


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#16
Dim_Reapa

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I don't like the idea of Orks getting a "6 always hits" rule. It's a rule that should be in the core rules, patching it out to a faction (even if for the most part it's the only faction that will need it) to me, is more of a sideways patch than a rule that would be thematically crucial to Orks. That to me is what a Codex is for, to express what is fluffy, not what is mechanically necessary. I'm sure some will be tempted to suggest 6s always hitting for Orks is fluffy, because throwing enough bullets should mean something hits, but that should be true of any faction that tries it. And whilst it could be fluffy if you torture the idea enough, the fact is, it mostly exists as an issue because GW has represented the most diverse faction in 40k fluff with the most rigid copy-paste this game has ever had aside of Spess Muhreenz, and even in their case, I'd be willing to argue for Orks having it worse.

 

When it comes to solutions, it's obvious at least one is coming from Clan Buffs. I'd be surprised if Deffskulls or Bad Moons at the very least don't end up with some kind of shooting buff. But the problem is faction wide. Part of it could be solved merely by a few pragmatic changes. For instance, why do Kommandos have BS 5+? Their sluggas likely have less recoil, they're likely to be able to kill specific targets pretty quickly and they trade in enthusiasm for some discipline and determined stealth. They wont be taking pot shots like most other Orks. They should have BS 4+, same should be true of Stormboyz, who are regimented and disciplined. The Gorkanaut, has the Deffstorm Mega-Shoota. I don't think there is another weapon in 40k that least resembles its own name in profile. 3D6 shots just isn't enough. Let's just have 6D6 shots. Might as well, most of them will miss anyway.

 

We can't fix everything by improving BS, but that's at least a start. For Boyz, for instance, you could change the Green Tide rule to be the same as the Surprisingly Dangerous In Large Numbers rule that Gretchin have. So instead of getting an extra attack in melee, Orks add +1 to hit in either phase. It'd at least give Sluggas and Shootas pretty much an equal point and would probably help diversify Ork lists. It does mean one rule goes on repeat though. Unless you did a swap. I dunno, I kind of like both having the same. One thing I would say is, it couldn't really be an army wide rule given that no other unit can feasibly match those numbers, unless there were cumulative or alternative bonuses based on size from 10-30 or higher with combined units.

 

I like Warhead's suggestion of basically making things count more when they actually hit, rather than tweaking our primary weakness. That's pretty much how Skaven worked in editions where they played decently (well, aside from the nonsense in 8th with Unbreakable Cowardly Units) and I think it's a concept we should have more of. I think this works to some extent with Mek Gunz, a similar sort of idea, but it's always confined to the odd unit, whereas if GW really wanted to dial it up to 11 it'd work on most units, and certainly most vehicles and artillery pieces. I can't see shootas upping to strength 5 though. Just imagine the pushback that we and GW would get from Beakie players. Still, I think that's a neat solution to the problem.

 

I just hope we aren't going to have to rely on situational Command Point eating Stratagems to make Ork shooting phases viable. I don't mind a few buffs (it's basically inevitable) from that direction, but we need some level of consistency that aids that kind of strategy or units like Warbikers and other "not shooty enough" units drop out of lists in favour of massed melee. Orks should have a string on every bow. It shouldn't be as sophisticated as any other race, but in the right numbers, or combinations its effects should be either matching opposing outputs, or be slightly less effective mostly but occasionally better than anyone else. We are tantalisingly close to many units being fully one or two of those options, so tweaking is what is needed here. Wheels don't need reinventing in the grand scheme.

 

I will chime in with agreement to Shabbadoo. I am pretty confident the Codex will still not address a fair amount of our problems because those problems (modifiers, blast weapons being just a mess of a concept, and silly issues with flyers, overwatch and auto-hits dictating metas) are fundamental issues with 8th's Core Rules, and addressing them solely for the sake of Orks just reeks of unfairness to everyone else, even if we need those issues addressed more than pretty much any faction. I am more hopeful of these issues being addressed, given that GW seems to be committing at least to refinement of rulesets. They are adjusting the rules a-going, so 6s always hitting is something they could certainly add in to the main rules, but I'm pretty disappointed it never occurred to them initially. This rather suggests that all the hubbub about GW really making Orks a major release pretty unlikely. It suggests more that they've not given us much thought, or have put considerations about Orks off for a long time.

 

But I feel the main takeaway from this is: I don't think there is "A" big solution. There needs to be multiple small solutions. Some Codex based, some wider, core tweaks. I do wish they'd do something with blast weapons as a whole. Or put using points into Open Play/Narrative and give Open Play/Narrative templates back. I think that's what I'm thinking of doing anyway. Something along those lines, if I can get anyone to go along with it.


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#17
warhead01

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Wont quote the whole wall. haha But I see several point that I think I agree with. 
Your probably right about the shootas not going up to ST5 and Beakies crying. Although all that has to be said, is..Get in cover you Min/Maxing gitz. 
Even ST5 is a minimal effect as most things toughter are vehicles or large models and would still be wounded only on a 5+ but the infantry would feel the pain. 
My alternative is on a 6+ make it two damage or a -1 rend.  Not really something I have thought over it just came to mind. 

What I want from GW is a lecture series on writing a proppa army and the why this is better than that, that being a list that is strictly one extreme close combat or shooting, and covering every army. Like a solid beginners guide to warhammer games+hypnotic suggestion/brain washing... What..What? (OBEY!)

 

I'd be all for the green tide covering more than just close combat as a small fix. It has power that can removed if the other player spends the effort on it. 
So it's Orky in that at the start of the game we are at out most powerful and as the game goes on, less so.

 

I also have to agree with Shabbadoo. 

I keep seeing these fear mongering "the end of 8th is here , run for the hills!. articles and looking a little at AoS 2nd, Ok. Well not a drastic change from AoS...Where ever have we seen that before... 

Not that I think it is just around the corner but if it is then it is at least a chance they will tidy up the rules a little. But I am expecting nothing and not really interested in yet another new rule book.  I am not trying to start any mongering about hat topic here either.  
So, don't gt any silly ideas Skumdreg. (Give it another 6 months.)


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#18
Badfang Brassaxe

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Alternatively I suppose a 'too fikk to notice' (argue that's not fluffy :lol ) rule making all ork saves invulnerable (say 6+ for boyz, 5+ for nobz, meks, painboyz etc and 4+ for mega armour) might work if they wanted to come at the problem from the other end :? Problem is that it does kind of make the KFF less relevant (unless it stacked :sowhat ). Edit - just remembered that the KFF is a cover save :blush



#19
Lexington

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Re: Random Shot Weapons (including blasts), one idea I've been fiddling with is that anything that has uses D6s for its number of shots changes it to double the number of D3's.



#20
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Your probably right about the shootas not going up to ST5 and Beakies crying. Although all that has to be said, is..Get in cover you Min/Maxing gitz.

Even ST5 is a minimal effect as most things toughter are vehicles or large models and would still be wounded only on a 5+ but the infantry would feel the pain.
My alternative is on a 6+ make it two damage or a -1 rend.  Not really something I have thought over it just came to mind.


I too considered rend, but I actually think that (even in a situational buff) would just make Shoota Boyz be what Slugga Boyz are now. You could apply it to both (it wouldn't be the first time that Choppas had save shenanigans) but I still worry it might be too powerful. It'd be hilarious as a Lucky Little Buggers rule for Gretchin though. But that's just my sadism talking.
 

What I want from GW is a lecture series on writing a proppa army and the why this is better than that, that being a list that is strictly one extreme close combat or shooting, and covering every army. Like a solid beginners guide to warhammer games+hypnotic suggestion/brain washing... What..What? (OBEY!)


I would rather that they continued trying to make everything viable through tweaking. I would however like to hear their logic and thinking behind their rules writing.
 

I keep seeing these fear mongering "the end of 8th is here , run for the hills!. articles and looking a little at AoS 2nd, Ok. Well not a drastic change from AoS...Where ever have we seen that before...
Not that I think it is just around the corner but if it is then it is at least a chance they will tidy up the rules a little. But I am expecting nothing and not really interested in yet another new rule book.


I'm not expecting a change right away, but I could see another Chapter Approved on the horizon around Christmas time with some more Beta testing rules in it. Given that most Codices have their factions out, I'm hoping for some more Narrative based content. If they can make Narrative a more functional option it might just tempt me back. It's one of the few 8th Experiences I actually enjoyed but it lacks options. One of the primary strengths of AoS Mk.2 is that the Narrative Section in there is more of a toolkit for constructing themed games. They should move in that direction.

I would like a overhaul of unit types and weapon types with more additions in Chapter Approved, but I doubt we'll see much of an overhaul. Most of GW's tweaking so far has been minor. In some cases too minor.
 

Alternatively I suppose a 'too fikk to notice' (argue that's not fluffy :lol ) rule making all ork saves invulnerable (say 6+ for boyz, 5+ for nobz, meks, painboyz etc and 4+ for mega armour) might work if they wanted to come at the problem from the other end :? Problem is that it does kind of make the KFF less relevant (unless it stacked :sowhat ). Edit - just remembered that the KFF is a cover save :blush

 
Orks aren't stupid, just really straightforward. But the 6+ Nope save is something a lot of people feel fluffy for other reasons (their natural resilience, the fact their skin is a type of plastic, and they don't really care too much about pain etc). I think that would certainly help out premium costed units that suffer from low resilience (lookin' at you Burnas, Lootas and Flash Gitz!) and at least give our opponents the stench of fear every time we roll saves, which is something I think we need as a faction. Every phase should have our opponents puzzled, shocked or terrified. Preferably all three at once.
 
On that subject, the KFF could still have a use. Besides, isn't it about time we got the other feature back from the KFF when it was first introduced: rebounded shots! (Also Badfang, the KFF is currently an Invulnerable Save)

@Lexington: My Blast Weapons fix I favour is always hitting on 4+ regardless of modifiers or BS. But auto-hitting with less is possible, or keeping them as is but giving Blast Weapons a particularly anti-infantry bite, such as doubling casualty totals for the purposes of morale, for instance. That'd even help deal with Orks with their escalated Ld and help deal with that threat with weapons you're most likely to use to achieve that task.

 

I don't think Blast Weapons will become a thing though, shame as it is. They'd probably conclude there'd be too much upheaval and reliance on FAQs, and both of those are depressingly true.

 

I think overwatch is more of a problem, but 8th is far too abstract for my favoured solution (bringing back directionality - i.e. fixed visibility in forward facing directions, creating blind spots for vehicles when firing and bringing back fixed firing points for sponsons and turrets etc).


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