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Gw and writing rules based off of lore?

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#1
Skumdreg

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This is a pretty interesting article that goes into perhaps why GW rule writers always seem to ignore lore when writing the rule:
https://spikeybits.c...r-own-lore.html
What are all your opinions on this?

#2
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He lost me at Ward writing good rules. Heaping praise on the man who broke WHFB three times, single-handedly tanked the popularity of every Core GW put out at least once, presided over the demise of WHFB and broke the fanbase so hard that things will never be the same again. No self-respecting writer would work for a company with someone as infamous as Ward's lack of talent in the forefront. Don't get me started on how Ward is likely a fluff consultant for New 40k, given that it's a Ultrasmurf wankfest.

GW's rules aren't fluffy because their writers are shit. This will never change and you have Ward to thank. Alongside the stupid motherfuckers who think people like Ward brought good things to the hobby, buying into non-existent writing standards merely to reap unsolicited gains from deliberate, self-interest-fuelled faction inequality.

That twat promoted himself to the top of the pile and then made broken versions of every single Core. Ward should have been fired a decade ago. Now he's likely back, turning this entire setting into a retarded meme.

Some of the most stupid apologetics I have ever read online.
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#3
Lexington

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He's...not wrong on the biggest points, I suppose. GW has a lot of contradictory elements in its lore, some intentional, some just based on the fact that a lot of what we now call 'lore' was written quickly, with no intent to exist a year from publication, much less thirty, and there's so damned much of it now, it'd be impossible for most people to read it without dedicating a decade or so of their life to the task.

 

Everything beyond that, though, is just nonsense. Not even on an opinion basis, but on basic historical facts. Pretty much his entire narrative of 40K's development is seemingly the half-baked suppositions of someone who's only heard about the game's background from Reddit posts and YouTube lore vids.


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"Gargrazz knew the importance of the dramatik paws, so he had been silent in mid-sentance for over three hours now."
- "Ork Story Bitz" by Chris Hutchings

Is Mat Ward bad for the GW fanbase? In my view the majority of the fanbase gets what it deserves, and it certainly deserves Mat Ward.


#4
Badfang Brassaxe

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I get the impression that most of the people involved in expanding Rogue Trader from an Role Playing Game into a wargame were quite heavily into the role playing aspect of it and 'propaganda' type lore for each of the armies would have been absolutely in keeping with that, which would inevitably cause lore conflicts if it's all taken as gospel. 


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#5
killercroc

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I find it quite funny that an article game out about how "GW doesn't write rules based on fluff" but in the latest Tyranid FAQ they made a ruling based of fluff reasons. Literally and I quote...

"Note that although Genestealer Cults are devoted to the Hive Mind and will willingly fight alongside their xenos masters, they deviate significantly in terms of organisation and tactics, not to mention physiology! Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules."

... oh but BTW Death Guard get to use Chaos beakie powers and relics because even though they're <Death Guard> They're still beakies so they get their toys too.

 

Honestly GW... go fuck yourselves. 


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#6
skarnir

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I get the impression that most of the people involved in expanding Rogue Trader from an Role Playing Game into a wargame were quite heavily into the role playing aspect of it and 'propaganda' type lore for each of the armies would have been absolutely in keeping with that, which would inevitably cause lore conflicts if it's all taken as gospel. 

 

I think this is where a lot of the stigma towards Orks stems from, the problem

now being that those who now write the rules are effected by this style of lore and the literal mentality that comes with it.


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Ork Tactics by Laughterofthegods

https://www.dropbox....actica.pdf?dl=0

 

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50985


#7
skarnir

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This is a pretty interesting article that goes into perhaps why GW rule writers always seem to ignore lore when writing the rule:
https://spikeybits.c...r-own-lore.html
What are all your opinions on this?

 

When will you guys learn to steer Clear of Spikey Bits, with the new community web site these guys are no longer relevant. Hence stating Matt ward could write rules. this is all a desperate grab for attention.


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May the Enemies blood on your choppa never dry or your welding torch grow cold!

 

Ork Tactics by Laughterofthegods

https://www.dropbox....actica.pdf?dl=0

 

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50985


#8
Nefairius

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That article was mostly garbage

 

 

Unpopular opinion: Matt Ward is good at two things. Writing good rules, (Yea, I said this opinion was unpopular. He wrote good army books. You mad?)

 

It's an unpopular opinion because it's wrong! And yes I'm mad because they weren't good books, they were terrible books! Took a fat dump on tin'eads. At first when it came out I was happy to have anything new for my tinheads but the lore never sat well with me. I realize now that it's because they're totally humanized. They really are Tomb Kings in Spaaaace now...

 

GW does for sure need a brand steward. Needed one -an effective one- since forever ago. But hey, they've always been pretty ad-hoc in how they do things.



#9
Skumdreg

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When will you guys learn to steer Clear of Spikey Bits, with the new community web site these guys are no longer relevant. Hence stating Matt ward could write rules. this is all a desperate grab for attention.

I know but it's good fun to talk about it. Honestly, I think the stem of the problem comes from every lore writer says their faction is the best ever. I've outright read rules saying 1 tin'ead could take down an army of orks but then read about 1 ork taking down an army of tin'eads. So the rule writers who probably only read their own personal army rules must get mixed up at times.

On Facebook the gw team said that every rule writer works on ever codex. I personally would love to see each codex having its own personal team rather than an overall team that has shown to not understand some factions while doing other factions really well. That's also a problem. Some factions had stuff done really well while others didn't.

In terms of the strarts from chap aprove, aparntly they work really well but on for footslog armies. Mech walker armies haven't seen much use to them yet and this is what i fear. The ork codex could make footslog horde hoyz armies the most op armynin 40k and I would be sad. I do not want an OP army, I just want one that fits the lore with every list being viable. This is why I think 'umie does so well with their codex. Every unit has a purpose and a role to play. You can't beat 'umie armies in the usual fashion where you just bring a direct counter. If you bring anti inf then they bring tanks, you bring anti tank and they bring inf, you bring a heavy anti tank/inf then they use valks, scions plasma and bulgrins. With orks they bring anti inf and you're screwed because if you bring kans and stuff then you also have trouble.

#10
warhead01

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That article was mostly garbage

 

It's an unpopular opinion because it's wrong! And yes I'm mad because they weren't good books, they were terrible books! Took a fat dump on tin'eads. At first when it came out I was happy to have anything new for my tinheads but the lore never sat well with me. I realize now that it's because they're totally humanized. They really are Tomb Kings in Spaaaace now...

I liked the Tin'eads book. I was ready to get rid of all of my 40K everything and quit until I saw that book. I wish I has had the opportunity to play more than 3 games with it. It was so much better than the codex they had before. 

 

 

Everything from Spikey bitz and the long war is garbage. 

I couldn't fine any language reasonable or civil enough for a further replay on this topic. 


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#11
Nefairius

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I liked the Tin'eads book. I was ready to get rid of all of my 40K everything and quit until I saw that book. I wish I has had the opportunity to play more than 3 games with it. It was so much better than the codex they had before. 

 

 

Everything from Spikey bitz and the long war is garbage. 

I couldn't fine any language reasonable or civil enough for a further replay on this topic. 

 

I've found I'm in the minority in this, that's for sure. And it's probably a good thing since more people liking the 'crons means more tin'ead players. And honestly, I don't don't even really dislike the revised fluff, there are some components I dislike, like the flayer virus, and I'm on the fence about them enslaving their own gods. If you think about it, it's just as metal than them being slaves to gods that eat stars.

 

What I miss, is that they were an implacable, utterly alien menace whos motivations were indecipherable to the people their unliving pawns disintegrated. I thought our 3e black & white codex had a great look too, it worked well with the Cthulhu terminator aspects of it. It all really jived with me, and why I picked them up at a time when they hadn't had an update in forever.

 

I would say though, that I loved the new rules and models except the Tomb Blade and the damned awful, terrible, wretchedly stupid Flayed Ones..

It was fresh air; finally something other than just destroyer spam or warrior spam. Lychguard were especially cool too. I played the hell out of the newcrons when they came out.


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#12
warhead01

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One day after getting out of work a bit early I stopped by one of the game shops and saw the 5e codex. the cover was amazing. It looked like a heavy metal album cover. I saw a guy with a staff weapon and had hope that they had found a way to incorporate a Stargate feel. which they kinda did but not the way I had first hoped. I can agree that they should have left well enough alone with the star gods and found some other way to bring in the character with out wrecking that bit. But I think they became very interesting over all. 
I don't credit or blame Matt ward for anything anymore. I think he, like a lot of writers for GW get their marching orders and get to it. Maybe he's gone too far more than a few times. I don't know I don't really care. I don't think having him work on codex Orks will be a bad thing Mr Kelly didn't really do a shinning job on the 4e codex. From that point on I see Orks as panzee, all divided and sub divided everything is a specialist, or a Boy. 
I would say having the same team on every codex means they have some kind of working knowledge of what they did just before and the direction they want to take everything, for better or worse. so there is a bit of consistence, maybe. 

We don't really know what changes they have in mind. I don't see any reason not to expect stratagems that work for more than just boys. They may just work better for boys than other units but who knows. 
The thing that sticks out to me is that this edition almost feels like it's trying to follow Andy Chambers logic, he dd a thing explaining games and units and that kind of thing. He said something like, "Make every basic troop unit a bit OP". Boys are nearly there but not really. He also likes the Ninja rule, One Ninja is deadly, ten or more and their not really very good at all... Not sure if that will come into play. 

We'll see. 


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#13
Dim_Reapa

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I'll put it simply: Ward is dangerous because he runs on bias and has no consideration whatever for the beliefs, expectations and experiences of the audience, only that he will tell them how things are (usually on the basis of a "reinvention" that is as cliché as it is derivative).

It isnt remotely possible to fail more as a writer. Doubly so when writing for IP that isnt your own.


Is Mat Ward bad for the GW fanbase? In my view the majority of the fanbase gets what it deserves, and it certainly deserves Mat Ward.

But just because it deserves it doesnt mean it should have it, nor that it is remotely justified.


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#14
PhillyT

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I don't think there is a way to respond to the level of cynicism required to say the GW fanbase "gets what it deserves" but I do agree that there was never a worse rule writer for Warhammer than Ward.


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#15
Dim_Reapa

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So what you're saying is, GW had purely every reason to just fire him and didn't. Ward didnt manage to stick around because a huge amount of Power Gaming fucktards bought into his rules heavily, rewarding his awfulness with success, and thus promoting him to the top of the pile? Well no you're not saying that, are you. Because they did. With gusto. Sure, Ward manipulated them, but it takes two to tango. The reason Ward lasted as long as he did is because a mixture of gullible morons with no taste and Power Gaming arseholes that will happily pay to win to the detriment to the rest of the hobby. This is a lot of the fanbase, and thats why people like Ward are going to continue happening.

Also, how GW can get away with insisting they're better now, when they've barely done anything.

I usually try to advocate for GWs Fans. But I'm finding it really hard to give a fuck right now. Right at this moment, I think they deserve all the rubbish they get.



#16
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I don't think fan reaction had anythign to do with Ward staying in his position.  It had everything to do with the "Old Boys Club" that GW was under its former CEO.  They used a small set of well known writers and personalities.  Ward wasn't the first terrible GW rule writer.  Look at Gav Thorpe.  GW under Gav was truly horrific.  The only people who seemed marginally capable were Phil Kelly and Alessio (who I think wrote the cleanest ruleset for 40k with 5th edition).



#17
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Overlooking Andy Chambers there. Also, pretty sure that 5th was Jervis Johnson. 5th was too exploitable with wound allocation, poorly implemented TLOS (which we're now stuck with) and bullshit Codices.

Ward ended up writing more and more amidst his own generation of writers. He wrote the rulebooks for all 3 Cores, killed all three, basically, at the same time. Someone thought he was successful. Jervis was still there, you also had Vetock, who was competent.
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#18
Boss Ardnutz

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I thought the Phil Kelly Orks codex was horrendous. Worse than the decade old Andy Chambers one it replaced. Lacking in character and sufficiently powerful at the very end of 4th to attract vicious hate, then immediately made into a lowest tier codex when 5th came out and every advantage in the codex was turned into a disadvantage by the core rules. Not that that made any difference to the hate that Ork armies continued to cop, even as they went from moderately successful back to being a guaranteed win for the opponent. That pretty much ended my participation in the hobby and it's only now that I've started getting back into it, and that almost exclusively as a painter, not a player.

#19
Nefairius

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If we're talking about bad writers and books, how about Robin Cruddace' 5th ed 'nid book? A good friend of mine sold his longstanding and enormous bug force. Switched over to the new dpanzee, never to return to bugs. I remember tabling his 'nids once, and it felt bad instead of bad ass.

 

over the years I've always compared GW's books and armies development with how they did it with MTG at Wizards (Not apples and oranges, but still fruit) and I thought it would really benefit GW to create development & writing teams; the product was always so inconsistent. Even the models, although most GW models are either good or very polarizing, but rarely widely considered bad. They really are a model company at heart...

 

Anyway, apparently it's more of a team effort to build these codices, despite slapping a single guy's name on the front. So you're telling me a whole team wrote that, and they said "this is fine, tyranids aren't supposed to have fun", and then half those guys go on to make that damned grey knights codex from around that time. And they said "oh this is fine, beakie need a monstrous creature too". Or the "naughty Beakies" codex as they called uh, 4/5th whatever CSM book. You know the one, the book with no flavor, options, or fun allowed. A whole damned team wrote it, tested it in games, and they agreed at the end that fun was had. Somehow. It's boggling the more I think of it!

 

Is it weak team members, or interference from corporate, maybe it's the timetables they have to work with, or it could be organizational dysfunction. The end result is all of us in here complaining about half the books and half the stuff in the books that actually were good. (But there is good stuff in these books, to be fair.)

 

I've heard recently that for a long time GW actually hated the game, hated us players. They just wanted to sell miniatures. It's so stupid I could believe it. I've also heard that that has changed, that they're trying to shake the rules up, make something we'd want to play. That to me sounds like marketing. But I'll take anything that is an improvement over the open hostility they had towards us all for so many years.


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#20
Skumdreg

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I think it would be cool if a group of developers from other games had a go at creating a fun and balanced 40k game (maybe starting out with just two factions) as a sort of fan set of rules.
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