Jump to content

Welcome to Da WAAAGH
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

orks and 5+bs

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
168 replies to this topic

#21
Skumdreg

Skumdreg

    Slugga Boy

  • Boyz
  • 345 posts
  • Army Name:Dreg Boyz
On the other forums we came to the conclusion of a dakka rule which makes it so orks always hit on a 5+ no matter what and ork vehicles get 4+ if they shoot all their weapons at one target. We thought that was far, especially seeing some of the codex stuff twith these last two races.

Don't those Martians get rapid fire weapons that can advance without penalty now?

#22
toaae

toaae

    Vampire Squig

  • Boyz
  • 109 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Beach, CA
  • Army Name:WAAAGH! Tortoof

All I want to see is an Ork rule that we always hit on 6s for shooting. I personally enjoy the fact that we're unique in that we hit on 5s base. Sure, seeing a few things move to 4s would be cool, like the Gorka/Morkanaught, maybe an option for grot gunners in battle wagons and such, but I have no real wish to see our whole roster move to 4s (or god forbid the awful idea of moving WS to 4 to compensate).

We roll a bunch of dice. That's our shooting gimmick. Other armies are more efficient, we're just loads and loads of dice. That's our "loads of dakka."

 

EDIT:

 

About the Adeptus Mechanicus and Rapid Fire > Assault:

That forgeworld can fire assault weapons after advancing w/o penalty, and Rapid Fire weapons count as Assault (after advancing). They don't get the extra shot(s) for being within half range.



#23
Skumdreg

Skumdreg

    Slugga Boy

  • Boyz
  • 345 posts
  • Army Name:Dreg Boyz
I swear if they don't give us that rule (no penalty when advance) I'm going to freak!

#24
killercroc

killercroc

    Periscope

  • Boyz
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Idaho
  • Army Name:Da Iron Gitz

I'm glad it's not just me that sees it. Orks are suppose to be "da supa shooty army" but we don't really field any more guns than any other army out there. I mean yes we can take the 5-15 units of shooty guys like Lootas or Tankbustas but they don't really put out more shots than other armies when it comes to results. Sure 45 Autocannon shots sounds like a lot but with 2/6 chance to hit then 3/6 or 4/6 chance to wound you really only get 11-15 wounds. Which may sound good but lootas are 17 points for an ork stat line whereas a guard heavy weapon team is 12 points for a heavy bolter or 19 points for an autocannon on a guard statline but with 2 wounds. So yes Lootas can put out that firepower but so can guard with 1 better ballistic skill so doesn't really count for "shooty" if guard can do it too. In my opinion at least.

 

I hope when they drop the odex they either make things a little cheaper, a little better at hitting, or a few more shots. Some way to actually make them super shooty. Cause if they're going to put forward the fluff that says "hey Orks do tons of shooting too!" then they should back it up on the board. 


  • Skumdreg likes this

#25
PhillyT

PhillyT

    Kommando

  • Boyz
  • 937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz
Hold on now, I field piles of guns. Sometimes stupid levels of guns. I'll have 80 shooting models in a 1250 point list in many cases.

I feel like people confuse the dakka concept with the accurate, quality shits. What it's meant is gobs of dice for shits with lower than average accuracy. And it works pretty well. Orks are designed to throw those piles of dice then charge in and finish off what couldn't be killed with fire power. Nothing wrong with that model really. If you wabtbshooting to be more accurate you'll need to trade out some melee efficiency to balance that out.
  • warhead01 and greggles like this

#26
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,829 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun
I think everyone gets the idea. The problem is pricing. And it's weird. I still don't understand why Ork shooting units are so pricey when they are so inherently fragile. That's an awfully huge premium for something that is likely merely going to soften stuff up. I don't think we need to lose the BS5 largely (although good to see GW are less copy-pastey with Ork stats this time around), but I would like to see fragility impact cost more, and not just for us, but other factions as well.

I think the pricing is better than previously, but a lot of Ork units have to be used with a lot of above average rolls to justify their cost imo. Lootas and Tankbustas come to mind. They're already expensive, they beg for a battlewagon just to keep them alive for a turn. That impacts their cost even more, and you end up with a unit that you now depend on doing a lot, not just a bit.

It can work of course, which is one of the good things about this edition, but we're still paying premiums for things that seem to ignore our rubbish save and inaccurate BS. Naturally you'll say it's intended, and partly it likely is. It should still impact cost more though. If my guard or Nid encounter lootas, for instance, they're target number 1. They're more resilient to my Nids that are combat based, but against opposing range they are spectacularly vulnerable and a big chunk of points for a decent sized unit.
  • Blakkreaper, Snarknit Grokguzz and Skumdreg like this

#27
warhead01

warhead01

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,097 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crescent City FL.
  • Army Name:Waaagh Gor-Gak !

Pricing? So, how much would you say a Loota or Tank busta should cost?  I think, or at least it seems to me, that if Tank bustas drop in cost they be come the go to unit for killing things like Beakies.  just because there "would be" more of them. I already stopped putting rockits in my boys mobs because tank bustas are better for having rockits than boys.  ( I've attempted to kill my fair share of Beakies with them too..)


Kick me! to see da blog! WWWAAAAAAUGH!!!

Takein' yer place at da top uv da Heap!


#28
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,829 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun
It's less of an issue if shots would always hit on 6 results. The fact that they can be effortlessly neutralised by an Assassin is a problem. Don't know a cost comparison between those units though.

Maybe the dice gods just hate me, but I've struggled to make Lootas work, scoring a handful of hits and usually just the one shot each.

If Deffguns weren't damage 2 and rokkits damage 3, I'd struggle to see your argument. They are good units. They're just too easy to remove from play without doing anything, and at least to me, suggest their disuse.

#29
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Wired into a kan.

  • Boyz
  • 1,746 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

Don't know if the easiest solution wouldn't be to say that 'if a unit cannot hit the target because of dice roll modifiers, divide the number of shots the unit fires by the dice modifier, roll that number of dice and 6's count as hits' - so 10 shootaz firing at -2 to hit would roll 20/2 = 10 dice and any 6's hit :?

 

Edit - any fractions round down (eg 3 big shootaz firing at -2 to hit = 4.5 shots rounded down to 4) or spend a CP to round up (to 5 in this example) :?  :?


  • warhead01 likes this

#30
killercroc

killercroc

    Periscope

  • Boyz
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Idaho
  • Army Name:Da Iron Gitz

I think they should just do the fantasy version of hitting, it's much simpler. 7 to hit needs the roll of a 6 followed by a 2+, 8 to hit needs 6 followed by 3+ etc. It's a really simple way of doing it. No reason to make it convoluted. 



#31
killercroc

killercroc

    Periscope

  • Boyz
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Idaho
  • Army Name:Da Iron Gitz

And as Dim put it it's a mix over pricing, usefulness and survivability.

Again let's look at the difference between a loota (17 pts.) and Guardsmen autocannon team (19 pts). if these units are in cover the loota gets a 5+ save, 1 wound the guardsmen get a 4+ save and two wounds. So even though they're T3 using averages it'll take 4 boltgun shots on average to kill the Ork, but 8 shots on average to kill the guardsmen. So for just 2 points they have double the survivability. On top of that, looking at a game for 6 turns assuming they can both shoot every turn the guardsmen will get on average of 12 shots so 6 hits. The ork will get on average 12 shots as well (assuming rolls 2 1's, 2 2's, and 2 3's) so 4 hits. Even if you roll lucky and get 18 shots with the ork that's still only an average of 6 hits, same as the guardsmen. 

The only part that gets a bit tricky is a unit of 15 lootas is a single unit but 15 heavy weapons teams is 5 units. Now this has ups and downs, with 5 units setting up you'll most likely go last, but you'll get an extra command point, 5 units means you can spread they out to cover more ends of the board, and you could possibly kill a unit of 15 lootas but 15 guardsmen all over the board it's near impossible. So it's a little hit or miss depending how you look at it.

On top of all that Guardsmen get orders so these heavy weapon teams can be made even better by getting either a re-roll of 1's to hit or wound.

So at the end of the day they're paying 30 points for an better shooting base. So I don't know if this means Guards are too cheap or Orks are too expensive, but doing something like just dropping them down to 14 points would be a much better balance to them. So yes Orks can field piles of guns, but so can guardsmen for hardly any difference in price, cause they also get mortar and heavy bolters for even less points than an autocannon team. It's hard to try and sell a point that "Orks get lots of dakka and can throw tons of dice, it doesn't matter about their accuracy" if Guard can thrown the same amount of dice with better accuracy. So I would say drop the tankbusta and loota down to 14 points would be a good balance.



#32
warhead01

warhead01

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,097 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crescent City FL.
  • Army Name:Waaagh Gor-Gak !

I think they should just do the fantasy version of hitting, it's much simpler. 7 to hit needs the roll of a 6 followed by a 2+, 8 to hit needs 6 followed by 3+ etc. It's a really simple way of doing it. No reason to make it convoluted. 

I thought it was a 6 followed by a 4+ and so on. So I didn't mention it. I think the divide by two would let us get more hits or at the very least take less time.

For right now all I can say is everything has it's job to do. Maybe Orks have no business shooting at anything that's -2 to hit but again assaulting a -2 to hit is much better for us. And when in doubt kill it with fire.  
As cool as Lootas and Tank bustas are I do wonder if it was deliberate to encourage Mek gun sales.  Doubt it.


Kick me! to see da blog! WWWAAAAAAUGH!!!

Takein' yer place at da top uv da Heap!


#33
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Wired into a kan.

  • Boyz
  • 1,746 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

I think they should just do the fantasy version of hitting, it's much simpler. 7 to hit needs the roll of a 6 followed by a 2+, 8 to hit needs 6 followed by 3+ etc. It's a really simple way of doing it. No reason to make it convoluted. 

Since when has basic arithmetic been convoluted? You are presumably able to work out that 5 lootaz rolling a 5 for the number of shots on a d6 equates to a roll of 3 on a d3 and thus gives them 15 shots, how much harder is it to say that they have a -2 shooting modifier so they only only get 15/2 = 7.5 rounds down to 7 (or up to 8 with a CP) shots rather than having to roll 15 dice, re-roll any 6's and then consult a bloomin' look-up chart (you and warhead01 can't both be right) :sowhat



#34
killercroc

killercroc

    Periscope

  • Boyz
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Idaho
  • Army Name:Da Iron Gitz

@warhead01 It could be that a 7 was a 4+, 8 is 5+. I never played fantasy so I wasn't sure the exact method they used. either way works I guess, it does the job easily. And Mek gunz are nice, but $45 per gun in a unit of 1-5... just how much money does GW think I have?

@Badfang Brassaxe Hey, I was just offering up the option GW themselves made for their own game. And if having to look at a chart to determine hits and wounds is too difficult well... that's almost all this game is  :biggrin


  • Dim_Reapa and Badfang Brassaxe like this

#35
warhead01

warhead01

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,097 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crescent City FL.
  • Army Name:Waaagh Gor-Gak !

@warhead01 It could be that a 7 was a 4+, 8 is 5+. I never played fantasy so I wasn't sure the exact method they used. either way works I guess, it does the job easily. And Mek gunz are nice, but $45 per gun in a unit of 1-5... just how much money does GW think I have?
 

 Not trying  to come off as rude or mean or shitty.

I just don't think the $45.00 price tag matters at this point. I agree they cost too much and too much to rush out and buy 6 of them in one go, even drunk me knows not to do that. I'm saying they have been out for a few years now.  
I actually wish I saw as much value in my lootas and tank bustas as I find in my Big gunz and Mek Gunz and burna boys. 

Fire good. :lol

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't change the rules to a 6 always hit. (That and really so what if it doesn't. as we already know we hit so well in close combat now and are ST4.) 

Beyond that T'au stealth monster thing, I can't think of another -2 to hit unit.  

 


Kick me! to see da blog! WWWAAAAAAUGH!!!

Takein' yer place at da top uv da Heap!


#36
Dim_Reapa

Dim_Reapa

    Ban Stikk Target

  • Grot Rebelz
  • 4,829 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Durham City, UK
  • Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun
Assassins? Venomthropes may stack as well. Not sure on that second one though.

#37
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Wired into a kan.

  • Boyz
  • 1,746 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't change the rules to a 6 always hit. 

Assuming that the -2 to hit is supposed to be some kind of survivability buff then it does make sense for orks to be hit worse than guard who are going to require natural 6's to hit anyway - dividing number of shots by the hit modifier at least bumps their chances of survival by 50% or whatever when shot at by orks (who may be putting out more dakka anyway).


  • warhead01 likes this

#38
Orkimedez

Orkimedez

    Grot Oiler

  • Boyz
  • 165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Munich, Germany
  • Army Name:Waagh
What if Orks had a rule "more Dakka" such that they can ignore any modifier when shooting. A full rain of bullets and the fact that Orks are assumed not to aim would fit thematically. It would be a sort of lucky hits by pure amount of volume

#39
killercroc

killercroc

    Periscope

  • Boyz
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Idaho
  • Army Name:Da Iron Gitz

Assassins? Venomthropes may stack as well. Not sure on that second one though.

No, venomthropes don't stack and the malanthropes ability says it doesn't stack either. The only thing is Lictors have a passive -1 to hit and the Deathleaper has a -2, but their abilities can stack with the venomthrope I believe. But there's really no reason for Lictors to be next to Venomthropes anyway. 

@warhead01. I get your point. yeah they're expensive but they've been out for like 2 years so in that time I could have gotten them, but really even after all this time the $45 has put me off from getting more. I got one cause it's a new model and I like it, but it's still hard to justify even getting 1 ever month or other month. But that's me, I'm sure other people have no issue with getting a whole bunch of them. Heck if I just played Orks I probably would have, playing 3 armies just means you're limiting what you can buy so it's still my fault in a way. I bought 2 boxes of Acolytes and those are $40 each so I could have gotten 2 more mek gunz.

I actually find lootas and tankbustas to be amazing, I just need to work on it more for 8th, last edition I would always field 10 tankbustas in a trukk and a unit of 15 lootas. I think I have about 25 lootas and the 10 tankbustas, they're fun units for sure! In 7th I once even took out a Land Raider in 1 turn from my tankbustas, tankhunter and lots of lucky rolling... was a good first turn!


  • warhead01 and Dim_Reapa like this

#40
warhead01

warhead01

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,097 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crescent City FL.
  • Army Name:Waaagh Gor-Gak !

I hear ya about having several armies. I've been there!  I've certainly been lucky doing some painting here and there to fund my WAAAAAGH! and finding them used as well.  I'm at a point where I hardly spend on my Orks any more.   
I do hope for good things for the Orks, I just have no expectations. 

 


Kick me! to see da blog! WWWAAAAAAUGH!!!

Takein' yer place at da top uv da Heap!