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Are any of the Ork FW units good?

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#1
killercroc

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So the point is really simple, are any of the FW ork units good? I recently got my hands on the rules for FW Ork units and I can easily say I don't think I've been this disappointed in a long time. Like, FW is known for making stupidly overpower units, I've seen the Chaos and beakie rules they sure kept up the reputation there but the dropped the ball hard on Orks. Every unit seems too points heavy or too under-powered to do anything on the battlefield. A few examples:

The Lifta wagon is more expensive than a normal battlewagon base by 14 points, lost the transport capacity completely and cannot take an 'ard case. The gun is lacking as well, D6 auto hits on a 2D6 roll to meet or beat a units S causes a mortal wound. So with no other wargear we're looking at 215 points to cause roughly D6 mortal wounds a turn... that's a horrible points investment if I've ever seen one. It's really good against troops I guess but cannot even scratch most tanks now.

The Warkopta is as expensive as a battlewagon and is only T5 with 8 wounds and all it can do is outflank, but since you outflank at the end of your movement phase you cannot make use of the transport capacity for a whole turn which defeats the purpose of taking it to outflank. the rattler kannon is the best part of this with 2D6 S5 AP-2 D D3 shots but at 16 points each and being a heavy weapon they're too expensive and unwieldy to use. 

Though to be fair the Big trakk isn't terrible, it's basically a mini battlewagon with a bit of firepower. My only complaint here is that if you actually try and take firepower on it you reduce or lose the transport capacity so it's in an awkward sort of "I want to be a transport and a battle tank" role but it pays the points to be both a transport AND a battle tank while not quite being both. That being said, the supa-skorcha is just hilarious and is a pretty good anti-troop weapon with a good range. unfortunately more anti-troop is the last thing Orks need.

So not to be full on negative I do fairly like the Grot Mega-tank... except the mutiny rule is one of the dumbest things I've even seen. 1/6 chance to not shoot at all for a 1/6 chance to get +1 to hit against a single target... yeah that's a fair trade off! But the idea of giving it 7 Grotzookas for 14D3 S6 shots goes give me a good little giggle. 

So am I missing something or did FW really just basically screw over Orks and just have some idiot that doesn't understand the game write our rules. I can see some use in the Kill tank and Big trakk but for the most part everything seems ehh to just plain bad. I would be so grateful if someone could point out I was wrong about something and there are some good units in this steaming pile of Grox dropppings.

Oh, and P.S. I know I'm probably late to the FW party but I just got the rules so haven't had a chance to go over and talk about them



#2
Orkimedez

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I only see 3 things having a place in some lists.
1) kill tank. For 300pts provides some decent fire power a minimum transport capacity and it's hard to crack with 24w.

2)Big track with supaskorcha to autohit fliers while carrying some guys inside.

3)Squiggorth loaded with 8 tankbustas+2bomb squigs.

#3
Gitkilla

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Besides the big trakk and the killtank (we probably all agree on the two) I would say that the battlewagon with the supa-kannon is okay. With 'ard case it's 6 points more than a battlewagon with killkannon at 6 transport capacity less. But yeah the killkannon is a joke sadly and the 2D6 shots of the supa-kannon are way better. (Big trakks can also take supa-kannons, doesn't seem like 29 points less with 2 big shootas are worth 1W less and 2T less if you don't want to spam supa-kannons at least).

 

The grot mega tank is interesting to say the least. With 7 big shootas it costs 131 points (same as 2 wartrakks which would be a nice point in the buggy discussion too) and has BS 4+, While on 9 wounds the T6 should help and with the range of the big shootas the 2D6 movement shouldn't matter much.

The mutiny rule is bullshit indeed, should have been 1 = -1 to hit if anything. Guess something you can spend a command point on if you need the dakka.

Can't see using 7 rokkits since it ups the tank to 170 points and I would probably rather buy tankbustas at that point. The grotzookas also suck because they are heavy weapons and with 18" range you have to move most of the time (and 2D6 can fuck you over too). Skorchas are expensive as fuck and waste the BS 4+ whiile again 2D6 M makes them hard to use.

In the end you want to go for big shootas imo.

 

I think a meka-dread with big zzappa is okay as well. 258 points might sound like a lot but things you can miss easily is the mega-charga which let's you move an aditional 8" one time (really nice to get into combat, potential 16" move if not damaged). Also the big zzappa can be fired with its BS 4+ without the move penalty for heavy weapons (can get lucky with that thing and D4 is sweet too). Would say the rattler cannon can also work well on him.

The KFF for it is not worth just use a bike mek with KFF to protect it.

 

We don't have the strongest things but I feel the stronger ones like the killtank are priced okay-ish now with the 'umie book out. The rest of the choices probably need a point decrease as do many things in our main book. It blows my mind how badly some weapon options (for the grot mega tank for example) are prized.


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#4
Skumdreg

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Surprisingly mostly all the ork fw stuff is pretty cheap considering the usual price of FW.

#5
warhead01

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I will have to look at these again, I've only skimmed them and don't remember what I read. 
The Warkopta sounds really interesting but the Liftadroppa, not so much for 31 more points I can take 6 Smasha guns which are nearly the same thing with more wound dice.  Although that auto hit is huge your looking at maybe 3 getting through on 6 hits. but that's not sounding very useful at all.  
I do remember looking at that Big trakk. Super Scrocha for the win. Might turn an old battle wagon into one, it'll be a big wheel rather than a big trakk. (If only I had the scratch building ability of a proppa Mek.)

 

with the WarKopta I can't be upset about not being able to get a unit out the turn it arrives. If I was moving it to that same spot it would be exactly the same. I guess, pack it with tank bustas for a sneaky arrival or burna boys for flying a bunch of them around. (does it carry 20 models? that would be amazing!)


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#6
Gitkilla

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with the WarKopta I can't be upset about not being able to get a unit out the turn it arrives. If I was moving it to that same spot it would be exactly the same. I guess, pack it with tank bustas for a sneaky arrival or burna boys for flying a bunch of them around. (does it carry 20 models? that would be amazing!)

 

The problem is it's not open-topped and carries 10 models. Can't do mega nobz or stormboyz (not like it matters)

 

Simply to expensive to deliver some unit to the front via deep strike. Would much rather buy a weirdboy with da jump.

 

It does have 2 big bomms and a big shoota that you can replace with rokkit or skorcha. So deploying it on the table and then advancing 24" (always advances 8") to drop the bombs and get into skorcha range could be interesting. The deffgunz or mega rattler seem dumb to me because they hit on 6+ when you move anyways.

 

Even for bombs a blitza-bommer would probably be better tho.


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#7
Skumdreg

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If I ever won the lottery or had a spare few hundred laying around I'd buy one or two squiggoths! They would look amazing on the feild!

#8
killercroc

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The kill tank for sure seems worth it due to amount of dakka it can get, I guess my only issue here is due to the fact that every baneblade variant went down in cost and got an extra D6 shots on the main gun the kill tank will lose out to a baneblade pretty frequently and I'm sure people will only play against a LoW if they take one too. But still, T8 24 wounds for 300-ish points is a good get.

As for the big trakk, you can tell whoever wrote that was just not paying attention. The supa-skorcha is a stupid good AA gun and the Flakagunz are just God awful. 4D3 auto hits way better than 4 shots. And the supa kannon too to make it more like a main battle tank. Though I see most people talk about Supa skorcha with skorchas and burnas inside so I may look into that.

As for prices things don't seem fairly costed for what they get. I mean look at the spartan by comparison, it has the firepower and transport capacity of 2 land raiders but the price is 1.5x a normal one. Sure it only has like 6 more wounds but 8 lascannons and 4 heavy bolters whilst carrying 25 models is a stupid strong unit. Then you got the Warkopta which costs the same as a battlewagon, can carry half as much, half the wounds and 3 less toughness and not even open topped. I'm not comparing a beakie unit to an ork unit just the price to power ratio is way off. Basically it looks like FW cannot be consistent when making powerful units. I mean I also play nids so I looked at them too and short of the Malanthrope everything is way over-costed and under performs. 

Most things need to go down 10-30 points I think. Heck even the grot tank looks good for 30 points but it only gets 1 gun so being 20 points cheaper than a kan for the same firepower, less CC, random movement and less T and W isn't really worth it IMO.

The warkopta is just a big missed opportunity I think. Its a transport gunship that cannot really go either of those things. Heavy weapons on a fast transport are counter productive as hell. Who knows, maybe when clans come out Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz will make it worth it but as is you're just better off taking a Battlewagon or 2 Trukks. It's a little faster but I don't think the speed makes up for such low T and W. Especially when most every other armies flyers are T6-7 with 12-14 wounds and a 3+ save. This thing costs more than a Valkyrie which is just dumb. 


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#9
Badfang Brassaxe

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Agree that the choppaz should be able to spec for troop transport or attack gunship, not too bothered about open topped although claiming that the FW one isn't is just plain dumb :bang



#10
Gitkilla

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Yeah they need to get the balance right for once. I was in a GW store yesterday and when I helped somebody who asked what was worth for an ork army the GW dude told me that balance only matters if you are a tournament tryhard who has a small dick anyways...

Sometimes I believe this mindset carries over to the people who write the books. For the FW big trakk it seems like the options are just there because you can buy the guns to glue them onto your big trakk. Not like the point values got looked at more than 5 minutes.

It's not like balance hurts people who play casual but they seem to still ignore it mostly.


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#11
Badfang Brassaxe

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 the GW dude told me that balance only matters if you are a tournament tryhard who has a small dick anyways...

Well, until recently they were just a company selling miniatures



#12
Skumdreg

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Balance only matter to tryhards.... *face palm*. I geuss playing against the odds every week is for us normal people then...

#13
killercroc

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Seriously? "Balance only matters to tryhards" I mean, I'm surprised someone so stupid has a job, let alone remembers to breath. Even the idea of having to explain why balance in a game is important should be so obvious it doesn't need anything to be said.

I mean sure, I'll play a game with a beakie friend this weekend and just bring 1000 Orks and 3 stompas in a 1000 point game, and if he says anything I'll just tell him to not be a tiny prick tryhard. 100% legit.

I have a strong feeling (hell I'd bet money on it) that both GW and FW put very little effort into their indexes... odd being that they've had months to "playtest" and prepare. It's really condescending trying to pass off what is such obviously a weekends worth of work shat onto an overpriced as anything more than that. Perfect example: A Genestealer metamorph had a auto pistol, rending claw, and a metamorph talon. The talon gives +1 to hit in CC. One of the options is to replace both the pistol and the rending claw for another talon, but because you can only use one weapon at a time having two +1 to hit weapons literally does nothing for the model... oh, and that weapon costs 5 points to boot. 

I'm sorry but if I'm paying good money for a product I expect it to be a good product, not this garbage that they're putting out and acting like we should be grateful to have. Honestly the community could easily just go "Right, screw these guys we'll make our own codexes, with blackjack and hookers" and easily make something better, only issue is so many in the community are X codex elitists and could never agree on what is balanced. I'm not sure who brought it up here but someone mentioned how another forum thought tin'eads were too under powered and needed massive buffs and that the Orks were OP. 


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#14
Gitkilla

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I actually want to look at the useless units after our codex is out and tweak the point values since my people don't mind.

In the end they hurt themselves anyways because many players will not buy a 40 bucks deff dread if it's trash ingame.

 

Still can't see how balance would have a bad influence on casual players. It's not like they have to play better just because the point values are handled better. The GW people seem to think that making balance a big thing will leave people with the impression that the game is for tryhards and not to just have fun (which is obv bullshit).

 

Another funny example is the grotzooka btw, that weapon makes no sense at all. Heavy weapon with 18" range and costs more than a big shoota. Brilliant.


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#15
Dim_Reapa

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GW, Fanboys and Forge World need to quit with the apologetics. They suck at it.



#16
AnthonyS

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I'd be tempted with the bigtrakk with supa scorcha and the Meka-Dread for the turbo charge move.  With the changes to the guard dex and a regular fish'ead opponent, i'm not even going to try a shooting game with Orks.  Just get across the board as quickly as possible.



#17
Skumdreg

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Honestly though, the small squiggoth is only like 200pts, can fit 10 models, has 18 wounds, 4+ save and likely does d3 mortal wounds when it charges in. If you have 1 big squiggoth in the middle and two smaller ones on the outside you could have a pretty cool and powerful army for about 1500 if you fit the right unjts inside their transport. (Basically have 20 tank busta boyz with 10 in each squiggoth and all your hqs with some other boyz in the big one. You can still shoot out of it even when in combat so it's the perfect close combat and shooting army... shame it will cost you about £500 for the squiggoths alone XD )
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#18
killercroc

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To be completely honest the Squiggoth doesn't seem all that good either. it does have T7 18 wounds and a 4+ is all pretty nice but I think being a big chunk of wounds is all it is. Yes it has the Stampede! Rule on a 2+ causes D3 mortal wounds, but in combat it's WS 4+ and has S7/6/5 and A5/4/3 so it's not really that good in combat, you'd figure it's good against infantry but you're wasting an AP -3 D D6 weapon and if you try to use it against T7 vehicles you're looking at 3 hits, 1-2 wounds so anywhere between 1-12 wounds depending on the roll, but only if it's at full wounds when it gets stuck in.

As for a transport only 10 models isn't that much and it's slower than a Trukk or Battlewagon and can only take a single big gun.

So 200 points seems way too high for this guy, I think it got hit with the same "Since it can do Melee, Transport and take a gun it must be extremely expensive" mentality even though it degrades in the worst of ways for what you take it for and it's not all that much of those 3 things. I think about 150 points would be much more reasonable for something. I mean hell look at the wave serpent, it is stupid fast, fly, has 2-3 guns can carry 10 models, has 11 wounds and a built in shield with better BS and it's cheaper than the Squiggoth.

I'm sure the Squiggoth could be good, but just looking at it as is, it's just too expensive to justify being just a lot of wounds. It could just be me though.



#19
Gitkilla

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Yeah it's a worse version of the battlewagon pretty much.


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#20
PhillyT

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I have quite a lot of FW products across my three main armies.  Mostly orks.  Grot Tanks are not good under their current rules.  Mekk Dredd is okay.  Kill Bursta Tank is awesome.