Jump to content

Welcome to Da WAAAGH
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Wagon vs Gunwagon

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1
Big Mekboy Chumba

Big Mekboy Chumba

    Grot Slave

  • Boyz
  • 149 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland
  • Army Name:Da Steel Boot Boyz
Happy new year!

So I got chapter approved for Christmas (wasnt going to spend my money on it) and Im trying to untangle these two units as killkannon users. They both seem to perform the same battlefield role but I cant figure out which is the better. One has more wounds while the other has a better save, one loses BS when damaged while the other does not. Im leaning more to the gunwagon in the codex due to it being less points but I wanna hear opinions? (Except for neither, use blah blah instead! because Im building a shooty tank!)
If I break it, I'll fix it.
If you break it, I'll fix you!

#2
PhillyT

PhillyT

    Warbuggy Gunner

  • Boyz
  • 1,615 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

Are you referring to the looted wagon rules?  One is legal in all formats while the other is only legal in open play.  Having said that, the rules are clean and I have yet to hear from anyone who has an issue with the looted rules being used in match play.



#3
Big Mekboy Chumba

Big Mekboy Chumba

    Grot Slave

  • Boyz
  • 149 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland
  • Army Name:Da Steel Boot Boyz

Are you referring to the looted wagon rules?  One is legal in all formats while the other is only legal in open play.  Having said that, the rules are clean and I have yet to hear from anyone who has an issue with the looted rules being used in match play.


Yes I am referring to the looted wagon :)
If I break it, I'll fix it.
If you break it, I'll fix you!

#4
Blakkreaper

Blakkreaper

    Da Ladz Wrangler

  • Freebooterz
  • 2,425 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Army Name:WAAAGH Grimgull

They're both identical in my mind - they don't function well enough to include in an army. As someone who's been trying really hard to make Armorked Krumpany work, the short and long of it is that it just... doesn't. They have the same flaws. Too short ranged for a tank that can't take deffrollas. Can't function as a MBT, and are outperformed as a transport my regular battlewagons. The weird lack of flexibility hurts too. Gunwagons can't take skorchas, rokkits, etc. Looted wagons can't take grot riggers, or any melee upgrades. I'd recommend Superkannon Battlewagons, but they're priced at the old (overpriced) costing, and can't take grot riggers. :/ 


  • Badfang Brassaxe, Gitkilla and Giganotosaurus like this

Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
Let's gross our fingers and sacraface pot Blood Red to Bitz God... [Morhgoz]
I oppose RAW evil; or, more importantly; The Dice Gods oppose RAW evil. [Andrew the Eternal's proppa hiaku]

"Giving Krooza an idea, now prooven to be just as bad as saying 'Go on Dim, rant away!" [Dim Reepa]
"We don't have a Battle Tank. We have a glorified transport that eats people." "like a surgical sledgehammer." [GrogDaTyrant]


#5
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Deliriak

  • Boyz
  • 2,543 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

For an anarchic race they're surprisingly constricted by rigid regulations and loadout specs :lol


  • Goreshrek, Blakkreaper, Beingmad and 4 others like this

#6
Blakkreaper

Blakkreaper

    Da Ladz Wrangler

  • Freebooterz
  • 2,425 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Army Name:WAAAGH Grimgull

Particularly as it's not like it would have taken up much more space to do it properly. I mean it's easy enough to say:

Battlewagon

Statline unchanged, still a single model. Light blue only exists in the forgeworld variation of this tank. Just pretend it's a seperate datasheet with these options. 

Wargear options

  • This model may take either a Killkannon, Big Lobba, Big Zzappa, Superskorcha, Two Deffguns, Rattler kannon, Shunta, Flakka Gunz, or a Superkannon. If it does reduce its transport capacity to 12. If it takes the Superkannon, instead reduce its transport capacity to 6.
  • This model may take either a Lobba, Kannon, Zzap Gun, Twin Big Shoota, Rack of rokkits or Rokkit-bomms.
  • This model may take up to two big shootas, rokkit launchers, kustom mega blastas, or skorchas.
  • This model may take an ’ard case and/or deff rolla.
  • This model may take items from the Battlewagon Equipment list (take the lobba off the list).
  • This model may take a Gunwagon Periscope (+20pts) or a Bonebreaka Ram (20pts). (A gunwagon Periscope gives the Periscope and Too Much Dakka rule - Too Much Dakka is explodes on a 4+.)

Transport: This model can transport up to 20 ORK INFANTRY models. Each MEGA ARMOUR or JUMP PACK model takes up the space of two other models. 

 

 

Looted Wagon

 

Statline unchanged, still a single model. Give it a bloody point score though. 100 Points is fine, it's 1BS less than the Leman Russ, that's gotta be worth 22pts. 

Wargear options

  • This model may take either a Killkannon, Big Lobba, Big Zzappa, Superskorcha, Two Deffguns, Rattler kannon, Shunta, Flakka Gunz, Rokkit-bomms, or a Superkannon. 
  • This model may replace its Big Shoota with either a Lobba, Kannon, Zzap Gun, Skorcha, or Rokkit Launcha.
  • This model may take up to two big shootas, rokkit launchers, kustom mega blastas, or skorchas.
  • This model may take a deff rolla.
  • This model may take items from the Battlewagon Equipment list (take the lobba off the list).

  • Skumdreg likes this

Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
Let's gross our fingers and sacraface pot Blood Red to Bitz God... [Morhgoz]
I oppose RAW evil; or, more importantly; The Dice Gods oppose RAW evil. [Andrew the Eternal's proppa hiaku]

"Giving Krooza an idea, now prooven to be just as bad as saying 'Go on Dim, rant away!" [Dim Reepa]
"We don't have a Battle Tank. We have a glorified transport that eats people." "like a surgical sledgehammer." [GrogDaTyrant]


#7
PhillyT

PhillyT

    Warbuggy Gunner

  • Boyz
  • 1,615 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

Its in keeping with GW's decision to not put things in the codex that do not have entirely self contained kits.  I am not bothered by this at all.



#8
Gitkilla

Gitkilla

    Gyro Stabilised Monowheel

  • Boyz
  • 534 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:germany
  • Army Name:Death Skulls

I think they just don't get how battlewagons work. A "gunwagon" is still more of a transport than a tank with actual firepower, it's just to expensive for that.

Not sure how it's hard to see that the concept makes no sense with other tanks around which are so much stronger.


  • Blakkreaper likes this

Metal elitist & into game/level design.


#9
Madda Mek

Madda Mek

    Warbike Nob

  • Deathskullz
  • 3,600 posts
  • Gender:Male

I think they just don't get how battlewagons work. A "gunwagon" is still more of a transport than a tank with actual firepower, it's just to expensive for that.

Not sure how it's hard to see that the concept makes no sense with other tanks around which are so much stronger.

 

Seeing how majority of new (Buggy) kits are suffering from bipolar disorder with their role or are kind of a trash, I have to agree.

 

I don't think we should even have generic Battlewagon entry (in HS). Make it dedicated transport for any infantry unit, then add actual fighting vehicles in FoC slots. It would make me happy to see Bonebreakers (or other melee variant) in Fast and Gunwagons in Heavy so someone with 10+ wagons actually have a great time.



#10
Garslag

Garslag

    Flash Git

  • Boyz
  • 1,072 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Army Name:Waaa-Garslag

Its in keeping with GW's decision to not put things in the codex that do not have entirely self contained kits.  I am not bothered by this at all.


We know you're not!
"Parry the 6!"

#11
PhillyT

PhillyT

    Warbuggy Gunner

  • Boyz
  • 1,615 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

I think they just don't get how battlewagons work. A "gunwagon" is still more of a transport than a tank with actual firepower, it's just to expensive for that.
Not sure how it's hard to see that the concept makes no sense with other tanks around which are so much stronger.


They could have remedied it by giving the main gun a guy finder or grot gunner it would have completely changed the way they play.

#12
Blakkreaper

Blakkreaper

    Da Ladz Wrangler

  • Freebooterz
  • 2,425 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Army Name:WAAAGH Grimgull

Its in keeping with GW's decision to not put things in the codex that do not have entirely self contained kits.  I am not bothered by this at all.

Is it better to be consistently wrong, or inconsistent? Like I understand their reasoning behind it, but as a consumer it is not a decision I care for. 


  • Badfang Brassaxe, Garslag and skarnir like this

Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
Let's gross our fingers and sacraface pot Blood Red to Bitz God... [Morhgoz]
I oppose RAW evil; or, more importantly; The Dice Gods oppose RAW evil. [Andrew the Eternal's proppa hiaku]

"Giving Krooza an idea, now prooven to be just as bad as saying 'Go on Dim, rant away!" [Dim Reepa]
"We don't have a Battle Tank. We have a glorified transport that eats people." "like a surgical sledgehammer." [GrogDaTyrant]


#13
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Deliriak

  • Boyz
  • 2,543 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

GW has got a rich history of making some of the best models available, claiming that they only have a limited lifespan isn't perhaps the best business model - why would I buy this expensive shiney thing if there's a chance I won't be able to use it next edition :?



#14
PhillyT

PhillyT

    Warbuggy Gunner

  • Boyz
  • 1,615 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

What model has a limited lifespan though?  What we have in this case is a fairly broad set of rules.

 

You can field battlewagons in 3 legal conformations-

 

Battle Wagon: Can be fielded with or without death rollas, with cannons, lobbas, shoottas or rokkits.  Open or closed topped.  You could effectively field it with anything you can imagine.

 

Bonebreaka: Forced to use a deathrolla and closed topped but has extra attacks on ramming.

 

Gunwagon: Comes with the periscope to allow the main gun to shoot twice.  Forced to have closed top.

 

Now they could have lumped all three into one profile but it would have required that each type have a byline stating that they must take the closed top if you add the periscope or bonebreaker ram.

 

The new looted profiles are a much more flexible set of rules, but they are for narrative/open play.  They aren't going to be allowed by many in a match play setting.  If they are, use those for looted vehicles.  If not, just use one of the three battle wagons.



#15
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Deliriak

  • Boyz
  • 2,543 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

What model has a limited lifespan though? 

Stompa is one that jumps out immediately - I can't see its' current stats/points cost encouraging many sales, too bad if you've already bought one - and if it stops selling are GW really going to carry on producing them, and if they stop producing them current indications would suggest that they're unlikely to make the next kodex. GWs' new batllewagon rules don't make a huge amount of sense either, all three options (plus more) were available in the index anyway suggesting that they've been split into three primarily to try to disguise the amount of options that have been removed - ignoring special characters, forty one entries in the index (treating Waagh Banners as upgrades) to forty entries in the kodex with Waagh Banner nobz and -meganobz as seperate entries for the relevent units, three different entries for battlewagons and six (instead of the indexes' three entries) for 'buggies'.

The remark was, however, made more with FW in mind (they share a premises producing similar compatable stuff for the same IPs, disingenious to claim that they're nothing to do with each other). FWs' index was missing some of the models that were still in production and their Index/FAQ/errata didn't make any of them even remotely auto-includes, their store web page has dropped the Kill Krusha completely - have we got rules for that? can we expect rules for it for next ed?



#16
PhillyT

PhillyT

    Warbuggy Gunner

  • Boyz
  • 1,615 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz

Yeah, Forgeworld is hard to read.  I don't know why they only released a portion of their line with 8th edition rules or how they chose what they were releasing.

 

Regarding the multiple battlewagon datasheets, I don't believe it was intended to inflate the number of options.  I think GW sees the sheets as simpler for players.  You know what a bonebreaker is, making it easier for opposing players to know whats on the table.  That would be a theory anyway, but the reality is I can't remember what a Snazzwagon has so I constantly have to recheck the sheet.  Slapping variants into their own entry doesn't really help sort those variants out in my opinion.


  • Blakkreaper likes this

#17
Blakkreaper

Blakkreaper

    Da Ladz Wrangler

  • Freebooterz
  • 2,425 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Army Name:WAAAGH Grimgull

What model has a limited lifespan though?  

Any where they decide to stop supporting it. KFF Meks aren't made, and didn't get rules in the book. IMHO their time is numbered. We lost rules for 'ard boyz and forty-something* other units when 8e rolled around. 

 

GWs' new batllewagon rules don't make a huge amount of sense either, all three options (plus more) were available in the index anyway suggesting that they've been split into three primarily to try to disguise the amount of options that have been removed - ignoring special characters, forty one entries in the index (treating Waagh Banners as upgrades) to forty entries in the kodex with Waagh Banner nobz and -meganobz as seperate entries for the relevent units, three different entries for battlewagons and six (instead of the indexes' three entries) for 'buggies'.

Don't forget the two units that they saw fit to only include as stratagems! :/ 

*Mainly from supplements, etc. We had a lot from outdated books because we hadn't had a solid update in so long. Forty-something is counting those and a lot of the uncared about named characters from supplements that barely differed from the main books, etc. Still, I'd be surprised if any other army lost half as much.


Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
Let's gross our fingers and sacraface pot Blood Red to Bitz God... [Morhgoz]
I oppose RAW evil; or, more importantly; The Dice Gods oppose RAW evil. [Andrew the Eternal's proppa hiaku]

"Giving Krooza an idea, now prooven to be just as bad as saying 'Go on Dim, rant away!" [Dim Reepa]
"We don't have a Battle Tank. We have a glorified transport that eats people." "like a surgical sledgehammer." [GrogDaTyrant]


#18
PhillyT

PhillyT

    Warbuggy Gunner

  • Boyz
  • 1,615 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA
  • Army Name:Dakka Ghulthrakka's Boyz
Its hard to say they will remove those kff meka. Its as likely theyll make a new model for them.

#19
Blakkreaper

Blakkreaper

    Da Ladz Wrangler

  • Freebooterz
  • 2,425 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Army Name:WAAAGH Grimgull

I'd figure if they were going to make a model later, they wouldn't have cancelled the current one in the meantime. I mean, it's not like Nobz on Warbikes or Deffkoptas are a current GW model either.


Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
Let's gross our fingers and sacraface pot Blood Red to Bitz God... [Morhgoz]
I oppose RAW evil; or, more importantly; The Dice Gods oppose RAW evil. [Andrew the Eternal's proppa hiaku]

"Giving Krooza an idea, now prooven to be just as bad as saying 'Go on Dim, rant away!" [Dim Reepa]
"We don't have a Battle Tank. We have a glorified transport that eats people." "like a surgical sledgehammer." [GrogDaTyrant]


#20
Badfang Brassaxe

Badfang Brassaxe

    Deliriak

  • Boyz
  • 2,543 posts
  • Army Name:Da Perfeshunelz

Nobz on warbikes are an odd one, I mean FW does still list them as on sale but none of the other FW kits are in the GW kodex - and the deffkopta (the GoMo one) is still available on GWs' site but only with big shootaz, the AoBR one (with rokkits) is only available through a kit currently produced by Revell (or so I've read)  :?​ 


  • Blakkreaper likes this