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8E rumors, and what it means for Orks

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#1
Shabbadoo

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 From Adepticon:

Pete:
It’s been a great six months for Warhammer 40,000. The latest batch of FAQs helped improve everyone’s enjoyment of the game and really clarified some of the key rules. And they were possible, in large part, thanks to the help of you guys and the rest of the online Warhammer 40,000 community. I think it’s really great that we’re now developing rules by engaging the community and working with people like Frankie and Reece from LVO, Mike from Nova and Hank, Greg, Chris and the rest of the AdeptiCon team.

So tonight we wanted to share with you some of the rules concepts that we’re currently working on and give you a quick peek at some stuff that maybe you’ll get to use this time next year at AdeptiCon.


3 Ways to Play
The General’s Handbook has been one of the most popular rules supplements we’ve ever released. Who’d have thought letting people choose how they wanted to play their games and giving them a clear way to do that would be so popular…? It’s pretty clear from talking to a number of event organisers, that Warhammer 40,000 would benefit from the same approach. So we’ll soon be introducing the same 3 ways to play – open, narrative and matched play – to the 41st Millennium.

Army Selection
One of the things that comes up a lot is the idea that people should be rewarded for taking thematic armies. It’s a sentiment we agree with and so we’re looking at introducing Command points. A mechanism to reward players who structure their army like their in-world counterparts, with rerolls and cool army specific rules throughout the game.

Movement
We think the Move value should come back. No more default unit types. Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it’ll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models.

Shooting
Armour save modifiers. This topic comes up almost as often as Sisters of Battle… so we’re going to bring them back. Every weapon will have its place in your army and better represent how you imagine them working in your head.

Combat Phase
Charging units should fight first. It’s just more thematic. So we’re hoping to work this out as well. It will reward tactically outmaneuvering your opponent. You can dictate the combats rather than being entirely Initiative based. You control who swings first.

Morale
Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone. We’re thinking of replacing break tests with a simple mechanic. Roll a D6, add that to the number of models your unit has lost this turn, subtract your Leadership and take that many additional casualties.

So...enemies will be taking ALL of the Ork attacks, if the Orks successfully charge- even the POWER KLAW attacks. Orks, and Tyranids (not small elite forces like Mega-wagon armies or Nidzilla, but hordes o' boyz and bugs), will be capable of ripping multiple new a-holes in most any army. Trukk Boyz immediately wouldn't suck any longer. Wartrukks and Battlewagons ho!

 

Armor save modifiers coming back will make for better weapon representation over all, and maybe the bubble chukka will be made to not suck such random suckable things any longer.

 

Movement stat will be back. Most likely won't help Orcs in any way, but nice to see it return. This should also allow for more specific values to be given to vehicles, fliers, jump troops, etc., which would be nice.

 

Morale. Probably okay for Orks, but we'll see how Mob Rule gets implemented (maybe that Shadow War: Armageddon +1 LD for outnumbering the enemy bit).

 

Also, assuming 8E shows up in October at the latest, these are not Rules Concepts that are being worked on, but Rules Concepts that have already gone to print. And there are no doubt other changes.  I am most curious about Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles. I hope one of the play styles is otherwise somewhat close to the current rule set, just with some of the fat trimmed a bit. Wouldn't surprise me to see 8E go the way of AoS and go back to something similar to the 2E Datafax cards for units. Set out your unit cards to have info at hand, have your much truncated rules set handy, and have at it. I'm still a bit leery of what the final result will be for 8E rule set, but I am trying to keep a somewhat open mind (even if that is how the bad stuff finds its way in). :lol

 

You turn Dim. ;)


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#2
Dim_Reapa

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Your turn Dim. ;)

**Tags in**

Ostensibly, my opinions on this mirror yours. In theory, it could be useful to us. So as I can't add much but agreement with what is there, I thought I would cover the few additional points that occur to me initially and then talk about potential alarm bells that would indicate we're in for more of the same. Naturally I don't want those alarm bells to end up being true, but I'm far too savvy to say it's not possible. I am, after all, tired of being right about them.

The Three Ways to Play
Really it's two viable ways, with massive preference for one in particular, one people toy with and the third one is more a quick play mode for simpletons.

Open Play is just daft. It's a silly concept, made the sillier by GW plonking it in first, as if it's the option they want everyone to go with. "Bring your collection. Done." I mean sure, it's easier to sort than 40k's current Forged Army Fun Features, but going to the exact opposite scale is not an improvement. Open play is already a warning sign. It's a hand-wave dressed up as innovation. Classic GW.

Narrative has potential, but they didn't put much work into it last time and it wasn't properly realised. They had infantry units not comparable in abilities (even before levelling up and acquiring new traits) that had the same size, even though you didn't need to randomise what units you took. For instance, with Skaven, two of your unit options were 10 Stormvermin (sensible) or 10 Clanrats (wtf?). Why would you ever choose Clanrats over Stormvermin? Only if you randomised, and if you rolled up Clanrats rather than Stormvermin, you'd feel cheated. Also the current Narrative Play only covers select factions (mostly the brand new factions, and all chaos for some reason). Much of it is pretty arbitrary and abstract. Whilst that bothers me less than most, it's far from mathematically precise, just to dangle what amounts to a cheap and quick levelling system. It also doesn't help that on my own, I wrote a far better one before the Handbook came out that is more applicable and narrative friendly to a much larger range of miniatures. Mine isn't very well balanced either, but I knew what I was writing rules for.

Matched Play is basically how any sensible person should play most of the time, and is tacked on at the end. So far it has been incredibly flawed in terms of points costs (which are changing radically in the Compendium Mk.2 because we were probably the only people who fucking tested it); allegiance abilities (they didn't match these very well. Particularly Destruction, who have the best one by far) and Allegiance (which is clunky and limited by miniature ranges). Given how the points seem to be evolving, I am curious indeed as to whether they are being used as a measure of fairness, or of encouragement/discouragement of usage: I.e. Sales stimulus and nerfing of unsupported miniatures ranges.

Army Selection
As someone who always themes his armies, I have some modest excitement regarding this. It doesn't entirely surprise me, and it won't change my meta too much. I'll be the first in my store who's really contemplated Unbound seriously and that's only because 40k bores me to tears and I want to see how many Grot Tanks I can take. GW wants to make sure that this system is well internally and externally balanced, or it will have the general effect of pretty much forcing players to spam the same stuff. This won't work as well in 40k as it does Sigmar. Miniature variation is pathetic in 40k. Can you imagine painting the same 5 miniatures dozens of times? If yes, play Militarum Tempestus!

This also could mean the introduction of keywords into 40k. This would definitely be welcome. One of the things I really like about AoS is all the potential synergies that inherently reward theming. Whether this would work as well for 40k as it does for AoS is anyones guess. I rather suspect it won't, because it'll either be too generous or not generous enough, leading to armies being largely buffed anyway, or requiring to spam the same one or two units ad nauseam to stay relevant.

On a final note, formations can still get fucked.

Movement
This doesn't surprise me. If done well, this could bring some much needed balance and nuance to the game. One suspects though, that stuff like Beakies are not going to go back to their 2nd Edition Movement 4. But it's certainly potential good news indeed for factions that are suffering this edition such as Harlies, Dark panzee, us, and Nids. Particularly Nids. This has been missing from their game for years, and as the most brutal race in fluff plays like a twitchy finesse army that couldn't outmanoeuvre a fucking paper bag, this is good news.

But ultimately, it very much depends. Again, it needs to be done well. Especially if some factions get movement shenanigans, even if that's us, that's going to be a problem. It's potentially less of a problem on the face of it, but melee is brutal in AoS, and with save mods coming, that is likely to be the same in 40k. In AoS, models with worse saves are generally quicker. If they can stick to consistency like that, it should work. I am very doubtful, however.

Shooting
Short and sweet: it goes without saying that save mods are a abusable very easily (they will have likely all control over setting values with no universal consistency) which could easily lead to inequalities, and armies with rubbish saves might well end up far worse off than they are now, especially if cover works as it does in AoS, which I expect it may. The big potential warning sign is cynical old me expecting factions such as Beakies or Tin'eads (I.e. the currently worst bastards for saves shenanigans) to get some kind of resistance to or modifier immunity, at which point, 40k can fuck off and stay a joke.

 

EDIT: Also another side note on cover, but the +1 to save from Cover in AoS cannot be taken by models with no save. This would mean that units like Gretchin who we are used to hiding in cover and making them very difficult to uproot would be easy to kill off. So let's hope they have the sense to avoid that nonsense. For the record, I don't see what's so difficult about saying a save of "-" becomes 6+ upon receiving its first +1 to save.

 

Combat
Given that chargers attack first, consider that this might lead to more effective Overwatch to compensate, potentially leading to units being annihilated before they get in. Also, with the changes to movement, it is entirely possible that less favoured units will be moving so fucking slow that they will rarely get to dictate who charges. Orks are likely to be movement 4 (because compulsory slow thinking) and we could even lose stuff like Ere We Go, meaning that actually, what looks like a buff for us, is just slyly gutted with the rug ripped from under our feet.

So to conclude, this could potentially be good changes, but the devil is in the details, and I no longer trust the company to deliver. It'll take far more than them acting chummy to expel my cynical expectations. Especially given that AoS is heavily meta driven with fucking astounding levels of stupidity and bullshit that I hoped they would avoid with that game.

P.S. The "who knew talking to our fans..." joke runs a little hollow with me, given that they are the last fucking people on earth who are allowed to make that joke, given that they were the fucking joke to begin with. Fuck you Pete, whoever you are. Self congratulatory bullshit from a failing company that was out of touch for OVER A FUCKING DECADE. Kiss my delicious, wondrous arse you bootlicking fuckwit. Also, the FAQs suck. Although that at least is in part the fault of the community for asking stupid questions.

One moderately good year does not expel your demons to the point that you can act all innocent and ironic about how fucking despicable of a company you became under the watch of Kirby. You want to start that shit, lets have some apologies first:


  • For completely failing huge parts of your fanbase because apparently Beakies need more effort to sell;
  • For the joke that is finecast, and their ludicrous and pathetic attitude to quality control;
  • For failing to respond to criticism and allowing talentless hacks like Mat Ward to have a longer writing career than people like Andy Chambers who had both talent AND vision;
  • For screwing over other countries than the UK with fixed shipping and material prices because they don't want to do any work;
  • For turning all of their games into poorly veiled sales stimulus and little else;
  • For allowing power gaming communities to stifle and discourage creativity and theming;
  • For offhanding all responsibility for an enjoyable experience using their products entirely onto the consumer;
  • For a shitty attitude to critics and fans alike that the company has had to go back on.

That'd be nice, but barely a start, really. This isn't much of a list. Us Ork Players have a list at least three times as long as this.


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#3
Garslag

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There was some talk of 40k getting a simplification a la AOS not so very long ago. Sounds to me like they've gone the other way, reintroducing some concepts that were once considered candidates for streamlining. I'd be cheering for their return if I had any prospect of playing 8th like, ever.

3rd ed Mob Rule was perfect and should never have been altered. Copy-paste from 3rd ed book, problem solved!
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"Parry the 6!"

#4
jackdoud

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The Army Selection buffs trouble me. We've already seen a version of this with the decurion style armies and orks got seriously shafted by it. Sure it's fluffy to have 6 units of boys in your army but if you want to play an armor heavy shooty list they're going to be a massive points sink that does nothing for you. GW has already proven multiple times that they don't know what Ork fluff is and I don't trust them to provide adequate buffs for following their ideas to make them viable. 


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#5
Shabbadoo

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Combat
Given that chargers attack first, consider that this might lead to more effective Overwatch to compensate, potentially leading to units being annihilated before they get in. Also, with the changes to movement, it is entirely possible that less favoured units will be moving so fucking slow that they will rarely get to dictate who charges. Orks are likely to be movement 4 (because compulsory slow thinking) and we could even lose stuff like Ere We Go, meaning that actually, what looks like a buff for us, is just slyly gutted with the rug ripped from under our feet.

Sure, Overwatch could go back to full BS, but it could also go back to needing to be set up too. In other words, go back mostly (or fully) to how it worked in 2E , meaning units have to give up shooting to go on Overwatch, but can then interrupt the opponent's turn to fire when they want to (but with -1 to hit any targets entering or emerging from cover, or that are charging). The 2E rules translated well to a small skirmish game like Necromunda, but they were full of cumbersome bits that did not work all that well for the parent game where one usually plays using armies of 50+ models per side.  I'd be happy if they bring back the simple and good stuff, but leave behind anything cumbersome from any game edition going forward with 8E. More than the rumors I cross-posted, it has been circuitously passed on to me that 8E will have quite a bit in common with AoS, so fairly big structural changes are coming. I know that is vague, but that is all I have. I ceased actively seeking out information 5 years ago, or thereabouts, due to overall flagging interest. The last year has succeeded in making me glance at something new here and there though, even if I bought little of it.  Give me some more consistency, and perhaps I'll pull out my wallet a bit more.

 

Too little is known at this point, but we ought to see more info soon enough. I am just glad to see GW is willing to let slip not just future model kit info, but some future rules info too. Also, your list of grievances is utterly spot on. Elsewhere I posted about GW doing things better for some time now, but that they need to consistently do so over a longer period of time than a year to even begin to start making up for the mess they've made of things over the last 5-10 years or so. Funny how that period of time coincides perfectly with the massive downturn in the amount of money I used to spend on their products. It hasn't turned around yet either (I did buy Blood Bowl stuff, but not much else). They've made a good start at things, but they have a good way to go still.


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#6
det

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...it would be nice to have a reason to dust off my orks...played 2 apoc games in the last 4 years. I'll definately keep an eye out for this new edition, hoping it doens't screw old stuff just for the sake of it.


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modelling: my completely completed stuff

gaming: 1850 mech blood axes list updated

fluff: what being blood axes is all about
--------------------
looting other races: tautechmarines (other site thread)


#7
Goreshrek

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+1 to det. At this point just providing a path to enjoy playing 40K would suffice. It is sad that the bar has sunk so low.



#8
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I expect orks to utterly fucken ruined in the next edition and for GW to send the next beakie codex on a roid rage from power trip they will pump into it.

Gw not having any writers left who have a clue about what orks are let alone what makes a decent rules set just tells me were due to be shafted once more.

The FAQ is a shining example of how we get shafted over(beakie dreads get +2 attack just because).

I would like to be optimistic but Iv been burned too many times in the past.
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Ork Tactics by Laughterofthegods

https://www.dropbox....actica.pdf?dl=0

 

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50985


#9
Blakkreaper

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From Adepticon:
So...enemies will be taking ALL of the Ork attacks, if the Orks successfully charge- even the POWER KLAW attacks. Orks, and Tyranids (not small elite forces like Mega-wagon armies or Nidzilla, but hordes o' boyz and bugs), will be capable of ripping multiple new a-holes in most any army. Trukk Boyz immediately wouldn't suck any longer. Wartrukks and Battlewagons ho!

I'd assume PKs/PFs and the like hit last regardless. Similarly, expect a few things to hit first, regardless. Chargers hit first is a buff, but honestly, I'm not sure it'd save trukkboyz without more fixes. Getting to melee is still a pipe dream.
 

Armor save modifiers coming back will make for better weapon representation over all, and maybe the bubble chukka will be made to not suck such random suckable things any longer.

This is the one I'm most optimistic (or least pesimistic) about. If done well, it'd be great. If done poorly, well...
 

Movement stat will be back. Most likely won't help Orcs in any way, but nice to see it return. This should also allow for more specific values to be given to vehicles, fliers, jump troops, etc., which would be nice.

This also comes down to execution. More about that later.
 

Also, assuming 8E shows up in October at the latest, these are not Rules Concepts that are being worked on, but Rules Concepts that have already gone to print. And there are no doubt other changes.  I am most curious about Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles. I hope one of the play styles is otherwise somewhat close to the current rule set, just with some of the fat trimmed a bit. Wouldn't surprise me to see 8E go the way of AoS and go back to something similar to the 2E Datafax cards for units. Set out your unit cards to have info at hand, have your much truncated rules set handy, and have at it. I'm still a bit leery of what the final result will be for 8E rule set, but I am trying to keep a somewhat open mind (even if that is how the bad stuff finds its way in). :lol

 I'm more than a bit leery. As much as some of these changes seem positive, I don't have faith in the current rules team to pull them off.
 

Army Selection
...
On a final note, formations can still get fucked.

I'm worried about this one, mainly because of what a Sian-Hamm theme army looks like and that their precious attempt at this (the aforementioned formations) were executed as well as Babbacombe Lee.

So to conclude, this could potentially be good changes, but the devil is in the details, and I no longer trust the company to deliver. It'll take far more than them acting chummy to expel my cynical expectations. Especially given that AoS is heavily meta driven with fucking astounding levels of stupidity and bullshit that I hoped they would avoid with that game.

Basically sums up my feelings on the matter.

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#10
Dribble Joy

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Every model should have cool bespoke rules.


My fear here is that 40K goes even more 'Warmahordes' than it is already; with each unit having some dirty rule, rather than simply relying on their base stats/weapons to fit into a battlefield role.

Eg. Assault beakies have jump packs and CC weapons, tacticals hold the line and devastators can have a bunch of heavy weapons. What might happen is that assaults get rending, tacticals get bonus VPs and devs get tank hunters.
It forces then into an increasingly narrow range, making then a one trick pony and also raises the ugly spectre of 'synergy'.

Also 1+ save for meganobs pweez. ;)

#11
Garslag

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Also 1+ save for meganobs pweez. ;)


I heard mega armour will be reduced to a 3+ save, in line with beakies.

Nah, I'm just messing with ya. ;)

Seriously though, they would probably do that!
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"Parry the 6!"

#12
Dim_Reapa

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Terminators used to have a 3+ save: on two dice. Let's not have that bollocks back.

#13
Shabbadoo

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I wouldn't care if they did. Never seemed a problem for us. Terminators got shot down with enough firepower (gretchin with autoguns!!!), or the right firepower. Of course back then people weren't playing with mostly (or all) Terminator armies. They could go with new mechanic though, such as Terminators have a 2+ save, but they roll two chances for each save instead of one. So, a weapon with a -4 modifier means a terminator saves only on a 6, but they roll two dice, and if one of them comes up a 6 they save. Simple enough, and it is not as easy to roll a six on two chances as it is to roll a 7+ on two dice as it was be under the old 2E rules.

 

To Skarnir, sure, PK's could still have a strikes last rule of some kind. Still, Boyz getting to swing first on a successful charge make them much more dangerous; especially if they will still do so at Str 4. One unit of Trukk Boyz on the charge would be respectable, but two of them working in tandem (or one full Battlewagon of Boyz) would hit quite hard enough, and that is how I tend to run them anyways.


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#14
Dribble Joy

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I wouldn't mind meganobs being 2+ and termis 1+, fluff wise their armour is better (though price changes would be needed).
What would annoy me is bolters getting a -2 savemod...
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#15
Dim_Reapa

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I wouldn't care if they did. Never seemed a problem for us. Terminators got shot down with enough firepower (gretchin with autoguns!!!), or the right firepower. Of course back then people weren't playing with mostly (or all) Terminator armies. They could go with new mechanic though, such as Terminators have a 2+ save, but they roll two chances for each save instead of one. So, a weapon with a -4 modifier means a terminator saves only on a 6, but they roll two dice, and if one of them comes up a 6 they save. Simple enough, and it is not as easy to roll a six on two chances as it is to roll a 7+ on two dice as it was be under the old 2E rules.

 
It's not the mechanic itself I have issue with. It's the fact that GW spread themselves out with various gimmicks with a wanton lack of consistency. If the idea was to make 40k more in-depth, sure, but the problem is you'll find nuance lacking elsewhere with fast & dirty features that ultimately facilitate quickness above anything satisfying, logical or balanced as a rules concept. That's notwithstanding GW's pushing of this "Forge the Narrative" bullshit. Making a wargame with an easy cop-out excuse not to stick to any kind of precedent doesn't mean that your game tells stories, and if so, only by accident, and certainly not design.
 
If GW are ever able to stick to, you know, one uniting design concept, I'll buy it. I'll accept any one, any fucking one. At this stage who cares what that direction is, even if its making children cry with over the top powergaming. At least it's a fucking direction.
 
If GW's "design" team started a boyband it'd be called No Direction.
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#16
Shabbadoo

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New info regarding Shadow War: Armageddon shows it is mostly 2E rules, but with some later edition tweaks to it. I don't think we will see this, but perhaps the Shadow War: Armageddon rules could become the new "advanced" 40k rules, with a cut-down, more "AoS  style" version of the rules being for the more casual/n00b players. I wouldn't mind seeing a basic and advanced rules set. That could satisfy the goals of getting new players using n00b rules, but still providing the advanced rules for extant players. Cut down rules could also work for massive game where players might want a bit less detail in order to facilitate finishing such a game in a more reasonable amount of time.

 

But, yes, there would actually need to be a plan. Based on what we've seen so far, there is a continuity of play options between AoS and 8E being pushed.  It all depends on how it is implemented for 40K though. I'm curious, but not overly optimistic at this point.

 

Touching on the Shadow War: Armageddon rules again, we'll no doubt use the release to manufacture some excuse to use the rules to play GORKA MORKA again.  Too bad we STILL don't have an updated plastic Warbuggy/Wartrakk model kit.


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#17
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Shadow War is basically copy-paste Necromunda with shit factions. And Orks.


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#18
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Depending on how you look at it if save mods become the norm in 8th ed (which I have no problem with) it would be better for orks. I mean shit, it's not like we get our saves anyway, and 'eavy armour is just too expensive to justify. So sure bolters might have a -2 s/m (save modifier) and that means we wont get saves but we don't now anyway, and shootas will get a -2 s/m as well, making those pesky beakies go from a 3+ to a 5+ which would be great. I'm not sure about anyone else but I'm sick of their great stats, wargear and low points in comparison to other armies and what they can do, it'll be nice to have a way to take them out. Nothing is more frustrating than causing 10+ wounds but only 2 guys die where your casualties are almost 1 for 1 on wounds. The only thing it negitivly effects are things with decent saves already like MANZ but who knows how codexes will change with the new rules? I mean shoot, Did you guys see the s/m for skorchas on shadow War? I think it was like -3, if that's true skorchas will be everywhere, that can melt beakies and termies like they were nothing.

Is it perfect? No not really, but if it can swing in a way that makes things more balanced and fun to play for the sake of being a little simpler (Because I guess writing a lot of coherent rules is difficult for a 30-ish year old company) then I'll bite the bullet for that.


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#19
Dribble Joy

Dribble Joy

    Skitzo

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  • Location:New Sarum
  • Army Name:Nuggruz's Iron Klads.

So sure bolters might have a -2 beakie (save modifier) and that means we wont get saves but we don't now anyway, and shootas will get a -2 beakie as well, making those pesky beakies go from a 3+ to a 5+ which would be great.


You're not being cynical enough, if beakie bolters got -2, then shootas/shurikens would get -1 ;).
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#20
killercroc

killercroc

    Steel Teef

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You're not being cynical enough, if beakie bolters got -2, then shootas/shurikens would get -1 ;).

Very true! I forgot the simple equation of (beakie power level x sales potential + OP rules = $) But I did recheck the shadow wars rules and it's bolters at '-1' and shootas at '-' so meh I guess? I mean with the save mods I'll just switch to heavy firepower. I only ever take 10-15 lootas but if they get a '-2' or '-3' save mod then I might take a lot more! Plus kombi-skorchas, rockets etc. If I don't get a save, nobody gets a save!!! *cackles grottingly*

I also forgot about this sites edit on specific words so every time I put 's/m' it changed it to beakie, great joy!  :sowhat


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