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"It's going to be the year of the xeanos"

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#21
PhillyT

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I threw demons in there because they weren't xenos so they got in by default!

 

Good call in adding them up.  I do think that the xeno armies MIGHT sell even better if they were spotlighted but it is hard to say.  GW is doing a great job expanding the game but it looks liek they want to push chaos and niche human elites rather than xenos.



#22
Badfang Brassaxe

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But are you really advocating for each clan to have their own book?  They don't sell enough of the normal orks to actually expand the line I wouldn't assume.  I think they really should reduce the armies on the human side to be honest.  Folding the solo beakie chapters into one book would go  long way.

Given that there's at least as much difference between the ork clans as there is between beeky chapters.....

 

Nafairius hit it on the head with 'model count' - it doesn't cost much to make a beeky army so if you like beekies why not make two armies?

 

Maybe the main reason I like orks is because I grew up making 'Airfix' (generic term) kits and converting them, perhaps these days people just want to buy them vanilla off the shelves :sowhat



#23
PhillyT

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I suppose I don't get too wound up because of the armies I have played and still have.  I don't need Orks to get a huge amount of love to love them and enjoy them.  I have had fully painted armies of the following:

 

'umies

Tyranids

tin'eads

Black Templar

Undivided Chaos Beakies

Grey Knights

Deathwatch

Imperial Knights

Orks

Khorne Demons

Khorne Chaos Beakies

Dark Angels

 

I still have:

 

Orks 13,000 points painted

Dark Angels 9,800 points painted

Khorne Chaos Beakies 1,650 painted

Khorne Demons 500 points painted

 

I have quite a lot of luxury to just play what I want.  If I only used xenos I would definitely get the feeling that the armies are ignored.  With the number of armies I generally keep on hand, I get tired of using one about the time another arrives.  I don't like any of them anywhere near like I love the orks though.



#24
Greyhound

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[...]

As they accumulate models they accumulate flexible advantage. Further, as they can draw on other imperial factions like Knights or guard, they can bolster strength or cover weaknesses even better. As GW expands the chaos-alligned arsenal, they too will be able to take on all comers, only with spikes on.

 

 

The hobby is driven by the game (as much as GW hated that). Strength powers the sales, and sales beget more support. Therefore, if they want to diversify their sales, they need to make xenos stronger.

 

 

GW has tried quite hard to diversify it's lineup, but every release turns into a boom-bust cycle because they don't understand war gaming. Every release they power up something new or something that sold poorly last edition, and nerf whatever is in ample supply on ebay. What they could try to do instead is improve the factions themselves. It's not the models it's the armies, and the game rules.

Very good post.

 

I think for Orks it's actually amplified. Out of the 56 ork units many are overlapping in utility and simply don't provide anything but a gorgeous model to the game.

 

Case in point: Deff Dreads, (when was the last time you saw one being played?).

With 58 units for orks, they could easily have a niche role and a singularity that makes them viable... instead all the models are all bundled into 2-3 design criterion which kills list building (easy to wound, poor at shooting, many deadly attacks)

The ork lists that are currently winning tournaments are: 150 boys, 20+ mek guns... it's very very sad for the modelling part of the game.


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#25
PhillyT

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I run Deff dredds, but only when I am using my dredd mob army.  It isn't the best set up for sure!



#26
Badfang Brassaxe

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Case in point: Deff Dreads, (when was the last time you saw one being played?).

Last WaaaghMeet :lol I ran two of them, they both killed some stuff - don't know if they actually killed their points worth but they were both still standing at the end of the game :thumbs


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#27
PhillyT

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I fire deff dredds at big heavy vehicles or monsters.  If they can get the charge off they will absolutely annihilate most things they hit.


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#28
Giganotosaurus

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The fact of the matter is that GW does not support non-humans, especially Orks. Beakies, and spikey beakies have different chapters/bands with chapter specific models and upgrade packs. 'Oomies have different planetary contingents and a killer vehicle list. Orks have one basic set of boyz that get adapted to the very specific clans by painting them different colors. There does not need to be a book for each clan, the individual clans could be covered in one codex. The same could be done for beakies, but GW wants you to spend more money on their overpriced rule sets. As I stated earlier, there was an observed increase in sales of Ork products post 8th ed. An astute businessman would pick up in that and run with it (and GW may be doing that in the upcoming year). I say all this having been in retail for more than 4 decades at a variety of levels. The market is there to be had if GW wants it.  :yes



#29
PhillyT

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Beakies have always been a core army in 40k.  Look at how many books they have written in Black Library.  

 

There are really too many beakie armies.  Increasing the number of ork codices is the opposite of what they should do.  Like the Black Templar, they should be folding the other Beakies into the main book or just make a split book with the special chapters in one and vanilla in the other.

 

As far as support, if you mean new models I suppose so.  I don't think Orks are any worse off than most of the armies in 40k though.  They are in the upper end competitively despite lacking strategems.



#30
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Nah... the tyranids was just one codex... but then again the new golden Beakies get a codex and they have like 4 models. XD

#31
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Thats an easy one though.  They only really have a handful of conformations.  Normal Custodes, Terminator Custodes, Jetbike Custodes and then a commander.  Then they have contemptor and landraiders.  They are what they are!  But their real strength will be as an ally.  

 

The long and the short of it is that primarchs and custodes are hot items that can be purchased by the majority of Warhamemr players and inserted into armies that are already painted and ready.



#32
Blakkreaper

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In regards to half the range being xenos I don't know about that:
 
beakies
Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Grey Knights
Deathwatch
Adeptus Custodes
'umies
Imperial Knights
Adeptus Mechanus
Chaos Beakies
Deathguard
Demons
Thousand Sons
 
Orks
panzee
Dark panzee
tin'ead
fish'ead
Yanari

You're missing a few:
Tyranids
Genestealer Cults
Kult ov Speed existed as a list for roughly 8 years. It was it's own army in a seperate book for longer than Custodes, Kights, Admech, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, or Death Guard. If you don't count White Dwarf/CA lists, you can add Deathwatch too.
Harlequins, have had lists since at least 3e. They qualify more than Ynnari, who are one kit of three characters and some ally rules.
Kroot Merceneries were a CA only list, but have had rules longer than Custodes or Admech.
Ditto for Feral Orks.
 

Some of the imperial and chaos groups could certainly have been folded back into a larger group.  Some (Imperial Knights) serve little real purpose as a stand alone army and are really more support.  But aside from that, Xenos are certainly not half the range.  I also don't really want to see them split the xeno armies up in order to force some sort of parity.  I don't really know that that would be necessary.  Clean effective codex with appropriate model support will do wonders for all of the xeno armies.  But if we are trying to compare release schedules it won't work out simply because there aren't as many xeno books as there are all of the rest of the GW line.

This wasn't always true though. In 4th edition there was 4 Xenos books and 6 Human books (plus Daemons). Given that the Imperium was 5 (and chaos 2) it's a lot better than 8e's 2 Xenos to 10 Humans (plus daemons), although this time Chaos is four.

As a whole I think most 40k fans would prefer the primarch/greater story expansion.  Maybe when they have finished that they will move to something xeno related but I doubt it.  They are adding new armies, mostly on the chaos side as they release demon primarchs, so there is definitely improvement in that area.
 
As far as a new xeno army I think they'd need to be careful.  The fish'ead caused quite a stir when it was released as GW tried to shoehorn them into a setting where they were never really a player.  Plenty of fans were bothered by what they saw as plot armor to protect the fish'ead and justify their presence.

fish'ead have sold well whenever they've been supported. I've seen more people complaining that 8e is Horus Heresy 2: Beakies Boogaloo than I did see complaining that fish'ead never fit into 40k.
 

GW has tried quite hard to diversify it's lineup

They've removed more units from Ork books than they've added. The 'nids were abandoned for a long time. Genestealer cults even longer. There are Ork kits out there that are older than at least a dozen armies are. Pheonix lords are similarly ancient.
In the time that Dark panzee got two and a half codexes, Beakies of various stripes have gotten more than thirty. If we limit it to Codex: Dark Angels it's only five. So twice as many. Blood Angels and Space Wolves can boast the same. As can Chaos beakies (not including deamons or legions, etc.). Orks have gotten three.

I'm not sure they've tried that hard.  :sowhat


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Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
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#33
da noob

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The mega dredd is not terribly good, though I think Greggles quite likes it.  I haven't found it to be great.  I'd rather spend the 100 extra points and get the Morkanaut.  If you don't have any gork or morkanauts, get those first.


I have two gorkanawts i was going to buy a stompa for my dread mob but its kind of trash so i thought this is the next best choice after this some dfdreads or kila cans maybe?

#34
PhillyT

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You're missing a few:
Tyranids
Genestealer Cults
Kult ov Speed existed as a list for roughly 8 years. It was it's own army in a seperate book for longer than Custodes, Kights, Admech, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, or Death Guard. If you don't count White Dwarf/CA lists, you can add Deathwatch too.
Harlequins, have had lists since at least 3e. They qualify more than Ynnari, who are one kit of three characters and some ally rules.
Kroot Merceneries were a CA only list, but have had rules longer than Custodes or Admech.
Ditto for Feral Orks.

 

My god, how did I forget Tyranids?!?  Genestealer cults count too.  Harliquins are like Inquisition.  If you include them you need to add Assassins and inquisitors.  Kult, Kroot, and Feral orks aren't really mainstream armies though.

 

Regarding sales, GW has had monsterous sales growth with 8th so I don't know that criticism of the lineup by a few really shows up in terms of success.



#35
Blakkreaper

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Assassins don't count. They're four different elite slots that can't decide where they belong. If you count them you should count Farsight Enclave and all sorts of weird things. We'll be here all day. Harlequins have had full lists with his, elites, troops, transports, etc. More units than Imperial Knights, Custodes, and I think Storm Troopers.

Kult had more units than Kights, Storm Troopers, etc and had rules longer. If you count Storm Troopers you have to count Kult, unless your argument is that Xenos isn't half the armies because GW killed off Xenos lines and replaced them with Imperial lines?

Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
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#36
PhillyT

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I didn't include storm troopers or Assassins.  Lets throw Harlequins, gene stealers, and Inquisition into the list.  Thats still an over abundance of lists for the non-xeno side when discussing codex releases for 2017-2018. You aren't going to get parity of release either way.



#37
Blakkreaper

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Whoops,  :blush I must have misread Admech as them somehow. I still personally reckon KoS have more of a claim than Knights, Deathwatch or Custodes. If we go without any of those it's 11 humans to 8 Xenos. Alternatively you could make it 8 Imperial, 8 Xenos, 4 Chaos if you split Chaos off from IoM. If you count them all it's 14-9. Really though I think the skew is the 9 beakie books. All of them except beakies/Chaos beakies, have been offshoots that have needed a main codex to use, or were a subfaction in someone else's codex. None of them except Space Wolves had their own codex to themselves before the Ork Buggy*. Overall, I just don't think Beakies are equally as diverse as all Xenos ever. 

*Conditions Apply.

 

If we're wanting parity for future releases, however there's a lot that could be done. Of the 8e book releases, three are unprecedented. All three are beakies or beakie-adjacent. Why not split clans off, or craftworlds, or release exodites. Until last year Death Gaurd had to share a book with the other Chaos Beakies. Why not give the Farsight Enclave it's own book or return Kroot mercs? Both had more precedent than Custodes until Custodes happened. At this stage more of the First Founding beakie chapters than not have had their own book or supplement at one time or another (with White Scars, Imperial Fists and Raven Guard being the three who haven't). 


Cheerz to Thork for the Great Avvy.
Let's gross our fingers and sacraface pot Blood Red to Bitz God... [Morhgoz]
I oppose RAW evil; or, more importantly; The Dice Gods oppose RAW evil. [Andrew the Eternal's proppa hiaku]

"Giving Krooza an idea, now prooven to be just as bad as saying 'Go on Dim, rant away!" [Dim Reepa]
"We don't have a Battle Tank. We have a glorified transport that eats people." "like a surgical sledgehammer." [GrogDaTyrant]


#38
PhillyT

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I 100% agree with you.  What I am referring to is the OP who was upset that this was supposed to be the year of the xeno yet with less than 2 weeks down was upset that nothing xeno was announced for 2018.  I was pointing out that what we got were two "new" army releases, one which only required two kits and another which had none.  They didn't need to do anything but release a book.

 

They will drop Dark panzee, Yanari, Orks, fish'ead, and tin'eads this year for sure.  I would imagine they'd squeeze in Cults as well.  Meanwhile they only have Space Wolves, Knights, and Deathwatch left on the human side (assuming they find a different way to include Inquisition).

 

By the end of this year they should have everything covered.  I assume Leman Russ will return with the Space Wolf codex ( I bet thats the summer event).  If you hold GW to their claim that this would be the year of the xeno, they wouldn't necessarily be wrong.  They have more xenos left than everything else afterall!



#39
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[...]

 

They've removed more units from Ork books than they've added. The 'nids were abandoned for a long time. Genestealer cults even longer. There are Ork kits out there that are older than at least a dozen armies are. Pheonix lords are similarly ancient.
In the time that Dark panzee got two and a half codexes, Beakies of various stripes have gotten more than thirty. If we limit it to Codex: Dark Angels it's only five. So twice as many. Blood Angels and Space Wolves can boast the same. As can Chaos beakies (not including deamons or legions, etc.). Orks have gotten three.

I'm not sure they've tried that hard.  :sowhat

 

They could sure as hell try harder. And if you include special characters the cuts run deep in other armies too, like just about all the SC's in dark panzee. Most without models (why didn't they have models eh?) and others with models old AF. They still have the original drazhar model, he's as old as our damnable buggies!!! They cut anything they didn't have a model for and didn't think would sell well.

 

But, they do try hard:

 

Lets look at the Toaster revival. Compared to dpanzee, it's been a success. How can I tell? They have 7 named special character models. What do we have left? 3? Badrukk, Ghazzie, and Zagstuk. Dpanzee have 3 left as well. They created maybe 5 or so for their revival, and they're all absent now.

 

All but the monolith and destroyers are new models. Since revival back in uh, 10,11? whenever- they haven't removed anything I can think of, (even though they really need to- lookin' at you ugly new flayers) but they've added models in waves. And not just the easy kits beakie gets and a big new flyer, but big, unique ground-up designs in 2-variant boxes. All those crescent rolls and battle boat raft crafts. I'm saying their shit took a lot of effort to design. 

 

'Crons are clearly selling well, if they weren't they'd have cut all their SC's like they did us and DE, because most of them didn't have models when 5e came out.

 

By coincidence, they have some important commonalities with beakie that I think make them good sellers:

 

  1. Durable
  2. Easy to paint- slap some gunmetal on them, a touch of wash and dot the eyes.
  3. Durable
  4. Modest model count requirements. Yes you can spam warriors but you can fill out on lychguard and other expensive small-count models.
  5. Durable
  6. Variety of firepower and choppy solutions that work reliably.
  7. Did I mention durable?

One of the reasons I quit was the scale of the game had gotten to the point where we'd blanket our deployment zones and hope to get first turn for the alpha strike. It's no wonder surviveability factors so heavily in the unconscious minds of buyers. Incidentally death guard, GW's new project, is as tough as it gets.

 

Anyway for a long time time since we've been playing, we got damned near nothing. But in the last decade, they've definitely given us(all xenos) more. They've given beakie even more, but all boats have risen with the tide. Gene cult disappeared but now they have 18 entries. Not that anyone cares I think. 

 

Every project is an investment, and they all have opportunity costs and risk. We players care about the game and the hobby, but they need to care about RoI. Much like the glut of superhero tent-pole movies, every beakie codex is a safe investment with good returns. Every xenos is a big risk. They will remain big risks until the structural problems of their factions, or the game, are resolved.


Ceterum hoc non est novum Bellum Currus!
Furthermore, we must have new War Buggies!

 


#40
FlamingDeth

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Sounds like a possible solution from that point of view would be a return of ard boyz with a new kit and making the rules such that they and meganobs are a good, reliable army. Or skar boyz. Or both. Having all those with stacking buffs from pain boyz and KFFs would make for a durable ork army and as long as they didnt nerf or remove other options boyz spam would still be possible for those who favor the green tide.