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"It's going to be the year of the xeanos"

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#1
da noob

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Thats what they sed before announcing 2 more non xeanos army's.
I'm sick of waiting for our codex i have been holding back a purchase for 2 and a half months and i don't know what to do.
Will they actually realise lots of xeanos or are they going to relise every tiny faction that a hole 3 pepole care about before they realise the major xeanos codexes. So what shud i do? Shuld i just go ahed and buy it or is our codex around the corner and i shuld just keep waiting

#2
FlamingDeth

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Go ahead and buy what?

#3
da noob

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A meka dread

*mega
 

#4
Badfang Brassaxe

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GW don't normally put FW stuff in their codices anyway so until FW get their brown stuff together you're still going to be stuck with the patch notes.


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#5
PhillyT

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We aren't even two weeks into the year.

 

You'll be fine buying a Mega Dredd.



#6
killercroc

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See, what they meant to say is it would be the year of the xenos, after all other armies get released. 


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#7
Skumdreg

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I just wait and buy magic cards instead
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#8
Badfang Brassaxe

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See, what they meant to say is it would be the year of the xenos, after all other armies get released. 

Galaxy's that crammed with oomies it's a wonder any other races can even find space to park a shuttlecraft :puke


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#9
Nefairius

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If they release every xenos army this year we might cumulatively get as much as the imperials get every other year. Maybe we'll get new buggies? It's not like we can expect a huge line redux like dark panzee (which to be fair was fantastic), no line is that outdated. Well, maybe tyranids maybe. At least in my opinion. I think they look a bit dated and tired, and could use some new sculpts across the board, like with those new primaris Beakies. 

 

 

ANYWAY, getting back to OP's question, as far as models go just get it. Are you worried it'll be unplayably bad in the next book? I doubt that. If you're only interested in a super competitive army, I'm not certain orks are the right choice. Not that we can't, haven't, or aren't competitive, just that we're can be really easy to plan against. (Bring dakka.)

 

Now as far as the codex goes, I would probably wait and just pirate the thing unless you want it to look nice on a shelf. The way it works though is if you buy, the new edition is surely out in a couple months. If you wait, maybe 2 years. That's my experiences with fish'ead, 'Crons, and Dark panzee. And Orks too I guess...  :scowl


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Ceterum hoc non est novum Bellum Currus!
Furthermore, we must have new War Buggies!

 


#10
PhillyT

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I don't think its fair to assume xenos will or should ever be on the same level releasewise as the human style forces.  There are only a handful of xeno armies compared to chaos and humans.

 

As for the mega dredd, it isn't going to be in the book and we already know the forgeworld rules for it, so you should be able to judge its worth now.



#11
da noob

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I was just thinking about holding of cause other units might be more worth my money when the dex realises

#12
PhillyT

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The mega dredd is not terribly good, though I think Greggles quite likes it.  I haven't found it to be great.  I'd rather spend the 100 extra points and get the Morkanaut.  If you don't have any gork or morkanauts, get those first.


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#13
Dim_Reapa

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I don't think its fair to assume xenos will or should ever be on the same level releasewise as the human style forces.  There are only a handful of xeno armies compared to chaos and humans.


The only reason this discrepancy exists is because GW doesn't bother to support these ranges. That is literally it. There's no other logic to it, or reason. Those factions would sell well if properly supported. Just look at Tin'eads and Fish'ead, who both have consistent and up to date ranges (and often filthy rules). These factions are very popular.

As to amount of Xenos, are we reading the same fluff? There are loads. Loads they could even bring back: Zoats, Hrud, Slann etc. That's just three off the top of my head. Half the range of miniatures are Xenos, but their ranges collectively are older and updated significantly less frequently. Of all the sins you can throw at Privateer Press, at least they understand the idea of customers with differing tastes and try to update factions together.
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#14
PhillyT

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I'm not talking about the introduction of new armies, I am referring to the release of previous codex's into new 8th edition formats.  I think its pretty unlikely we will see another "risky" xeno release given the apparent refocus on the Chaos-Imperial conflict.  It looks like they will most likely be releasing demon primarch and loyalist primarchs yearly for the foreseeable future.  I never picked up the notion that they would be introducing a new xeno army in their discussion about 2018 being the year of the xenos.

 

In regards to half the range being xenos I don't know about that:

 

beakies

Blood Angels

Space Wolves

Dark Angels

Grey Knights

Deathwatch

Adeptus Custodes

'umies

Imperial Knights

Adeptus Mechanus

Chaos Beakies

Deathguard

Demons

Thousand Sons

 

Orks

panzee

Dark panzee

tin'ead

fish'ead

Yanari

 

Some of the imperial and chaos groups could certainly have been folded back into a larger group.  Some (Imperial Knights) serve little real purpose as a stand alone army and are really more support.  But aside from that, Xenos are certainly not half the range.  I also don't really want to see them split the xeno armies up in order to force some sort of parity.  I don't really know that that would be necessary.  Clean effective codex with appropriate model support will do wonders for all of the xeno armies.  But if we are trying to compare release schedules it won't work out simply because there aren't as many xeno books as there are all of the rest of the GW line.

 

 As a whole I think most 40k fans would prefer the primarch/greater story expansion.  Maybe when they have finished that they will move to something xeno related but I doubt it.  They are adding new armies, mostly on the chaos side as they release demon primarchs, so there is definitely improvement in that area.

 

As far as a new xeno army I think they'd need to be careful.  The fish'ead caused quite a stir when it was released as GW tried to shoehorn them into a setting where they were never really a player.  Plenty of fans were bothered by what they saw as plot armor to protect the fish'ead and justify their presence.



#15
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"Those factions would sell well if properly supported." Hit the nail on the head head as usual Dim. As anecdotal evidence, I offer the following: For years, I was one of few who purchased Ork themed products at my lgs. Everyone there played/plays beakies/chaos, fish 'eads (when they came out), or dark panzee. There is one other Ork player. When the 8th ed. came out, and people discovered that Orks were semi-viable, the shelves became barren of anything orky. Wiped clean! Now that the other races are figuring out how to deal with the new rules, sales have slowed, but the business is still there to be had if (and that's a big if) GW wants to support it.  :bang  

 

P.S, Doesn't GW fluff state that Orks are the most numerous race in the universe? How did they become so? Not by being the textbook "stupid xeno" that they are now.


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#16
PhillyT

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How does the number of a race in the fluff have anything to do with the model lines?  There are very few beakies compared to fish'ead but that doesn't impact model lines and release schedules.

 

Regarding sales, it is hard to say what will and won't sell.  They redid most of the ork line in 2008 and there wasn't an immense influx of new ork players to the point where it was a wholesale shift in demographic.  Definitely, you make new models and people will come.  But will it be enough?  We haven't seen many new models for any army at this point in 8th.  I have no doubt they will redo a couple things in the ork codex since the models are so old but I wouldn't assume a significant difference between the index and codex lists.



#17
killercroc

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I've noticed a similar trend in sales myself, once anything becomes 'good' it starts flying off the shelves. I mean, good on the LGS for doing business but as someone who plays it's really annoying that the people I play with always just pick the more powerful armies, so it's bad enough when you're a bottom tier codex, but when everyone else plays top tier it makes most games unpleasant. As much as I like Orks there are some armies they just do not handle well at all, and lots of tanks are difficult too. Sure I can field a few units of lootas and tank bustas but when the 'umie player takes 6 Leman Russ tanks it doesn't matter. 

Well here's to hoping that when Orks come out they get a good buff like most other armies we've seen. Oh, and hopefully updates to our pre-historic model range. The fact that our core unit is the same as it's been in 3rd edition really shows. 



#18
Badfang Brassaxe

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In regards to half the range being xenos I don't know about that:

 

beakies

Blood Angels

Space Wolves

Dark Angels

Grey Knights

Deathwatch

Adeptus Custodes

'umies

Imperial Knights

Adeptus Mechanus

Chaos Beakies

Deathguard

Demons

Thousand Sons

 

Orks

panzee

Dark panzee

tin'ead

fish'ead

Yanari

Orks

BadMoons

BloodAxes

DeffSkulz

EvilSunz

FreeBootaz

Goffs

Snakebites

 

Why else would they have the <Clan> keyword

 

Fish'ed have a <Sept> keyword

Bugs have <Hive Fleet>

 

Panzee

Alaitoc

BielTan

Iyendan - plus a few more I can't remember and I don't think any of the other races are completely without factions/sub factions.

 

As for the 2008 orky model updates - got some kommandos (not a bad match for my R/T custom plastic ones), got some lootaz/burnaz, got a battlewagon (build options struck me as that limited that I couldn't see any point in buying two), got a couple or so boxes of nobs and I think that was about it for the new releases :?


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#19
PhillyT

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But are you really advocating for each clan to have their own book?  They don't sell enough of the normal orks to actually expand the line I wouldn't assume.  I think they really should reduce the armies on the human side to be honest.  Folding the solo beakie chapters into one book would go  long way.



#20
Nefairius

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PhillyT I'm not sure you can fairly list Daemons as humans. What with them not being uh, humans, and what have you. I decided to just have a look on the side, and just add up all the entries. Convieniently all the imperial stuff is in a block at the top of the list, followed with chaos, and then a confused mash of everything else in no order despite having every reason to have all the panzees in one grouping too. They should fix their site.

 

The disparity is worse than I thought, I figured maybe 2-1 but:

 

There are about 800 imperial-aligned entries

116 for Chaos-Alligned entries.

 

  • 119 entries for all panzees.
  • 69 'nids
  • 56 for all orks.
  • 44 toasters
  • 42 fish'ead

 

Even if you consider that there is a fair bit of overlap in the Beakies entries, almost all of them are still unique variants of something or other. This list is all you need to see the disparity in the depth of the rosters.

 

Now, to be fair we can see GW has made concerted efforts to bulk up their non-imperial rosters, recently with the vast and pretty damned spiffy Death Guard expansion. Whats more is I see people painting the stuff all the time on reddit. Before that, the major expansion of the tin'ead roster, and before that I think their first big effort was the dark panzee redux, which I want to type about more.

 

Just about everyone in 40k complains about the lack of support for xenos. Myself included. All I ever owned was xenos, and all of them (Orks, Dpanzee, fish'ead, Crons) languished for years and years with nary a model release. I always said "if they supported them they'd sell themselves". Well, apparently they don't. Fluff, sculpts, novelty. All of that is secondary to "it's real strong and wins me games", which is apparently the primary metric for sales. 

 

When the 8th ed. came out, and people discovered that Orks were semi-viable, the shelves became barren of anything orky. Wiped clean! 

 

 

I've noticed a similar trend in sales myself, once anything becomes 'good' it starts flying off the shelves. I mean, good on the LGS for doing business but as someone who plays it's really annoying that the people I play with always just pick the more powerful armies,

 

This. This is the problem. The army don't matter, what matters is winning battles. (Something I can understand, I'm competitive AF in some games, like MtG.) 

 

I have read for years that the dark panzee redux sales were lukewarm at best.

 

You can't tell me they didn't support that shit, you can't put out an entire new line of expensive plastic molds of gorgeous new models with a good (fair) codex, all that art, and say they didn't support it. They didn't sell, and they curtailed the line. Almost everything they have is from that initial wave of releases.

 

So what went wrong? I don't buy the argument that they're hard to relate to because they aren't human. Faction popularity was all over the place in TT, people played panzee heavily in DoW. In TW:WH fucking lizardmen are as popular as empire or dorfs. It's not like they aren't any eviler than chaos, so that ain't it.

 

So if they were well supported, and the faction itself has only a modest impact on sales, what went wrong?

The army sucks. It sucks because it's hard to play. I know it, I played them for years. Sink or swim, feast or famine. One mistake and you're done. I've nearly tabled them with my fish'ead, and I've lost *horribly* with them.

 

It's a design feature, they're supposed to be a glass cannon, (although often enough they're more glass than cannon, but that's a balance issue). My point is this intrinsic doctrinal limitation is what hampers their sales, and every other xenos in 40k.

 

The problem with xenos armies is Planet of Hats. Every faction in 40k suffers from it to some extent except guard.

 

Beakies are easy:

 

  1. Durable
  • Mistakes aren't catastrophic
  • Durability means reliability in achieving your goals

 

       2) Flexible collecting

  • Modest model count requirement
  • Easier to paint

 

       3) Potent arsenal

  • Firepower at all ranges
  • No slouch in melee

 

As they accumulate models they accumulate flexible advantage. Further, as they can draw on other imperial factions like Knights or guard, they can bolster strength or cover weaknesses even better. As GW expands the chaos-alligned arsenal, they too will be able to take on all comers, only with spikes on.

 

 

The hobby is driven by the game (as much as GW hated that). Strength powers the sales, and sales beget more support. Therefore, if they want to diversify their sales, they need to make xenos stronger.

 

 

GW has tried quite hard to diversify it's lineup, but every release turns into a boom-bust cycle because they don't understand war gaming. Every release they power up something new or something that sold poorly last edition, and nerf whatever is in ample supply on ebay. What they could try to do instead is improve the factions themselves. It's not the models it's the armies, and the game rules.


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Ceterum hoc non est novum Bellum Currus!
Furthermore, we must have new War Buggies!