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Gw and writing rules based off of lore?

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#21
PhillyT

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I thought the Phil Kelly Orks codex was horrendous. Worse than the decade old Andy Chambers one it replaced. Lacking in character and sufficiently powerful at the very end of 4th to attract vicious hate, then immediately made into a lowest tier codex when 5th came out and every advantage in the codex was turned into a disadvantage by the core rules. Not that that made any difference to the hate that Ork armies continued to cop, even as they went from moderately successful back to being a guaranteed win for the opponent. That pretty much ended my participation in the hobby and it's only now that I've started getting back into it, and that almost exclusively as a painter, not a player.

 

I did well with it in 5th.



#22
warhead01

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I did well with it in 5th.

What were you using? 


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#23
Dim_Reapa

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It's still a shit book... Bland, uninspired. At least with Andy C's Codex, things, you know, happened. It grew on me over the years, but it had to considering how long we were saddled with that tiresome snoozefest. Its only virtue was being replaced by something worse in almost every way than it was.

#24
PhillyT

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What were you using? 

 

Wagon rush with 20+ biker/nob bikers.  The wagons had 20 shoota boyz and deff rollas.  One had a full unit of burna boyz who would annihilate anything that templte was laid upon (the old multiplying rule was incredible).

 

The 4th edition codex was better in almost every possible sense to the previous one.  It didn't have as much variety but it worked fine and was much more usable.


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#25
skarnir

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The 4th edition codex was better in almost every possible sense to the previous one.  It didn't have as much variety but it worked fine and was much more usable.

 

I totally agree with you on that one, Maybe I'm a little biased with the 4th ed codex as it was my first ork codex I actually played the army under. that being said I know it had its flaws but I loved several aspects. Its the only time I went to tournament play during 5th edition with deffrolla wagon rush, used to be hilarious blowing tanks you run into.

 

I miss the ability to customize your army to your HQ, warboss being able to take Manz as troops and meks being able to take dreads as troops. I feel it gave the army a bit of flavor (not as much as older books but still better than that pile of steaming sh!t that was 7th ed codex!!!!!)


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Ork Tactics by Laughterofthegods

https://www.dropbox....actica.pdf?dl=0

 

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50985


#26
Skumdreg

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I didn't play in the 90s but I hear 2nd or 3rd edititon orks were super OP and fun as hell! You oukd srt people on fire and have them run around, knock them over with special weapons and use so many different types of grenades.

#27
warhead01

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2nd ed Orks were wild. MY brother played them. We had quite a time with the Orks splatta Kannon. Think artillery shell strapped with rokkits bouncing all over the board. I think Orks were a lot more lighthearted back then. From 3rd on they haven't been "funny". It was different back then.


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#28
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I totally agree with you on that one, Maybe I'm a little biased with the 4th ed codex as it was my first ork codex I actually played the army under. that being said I know it had its flaws but I loved several aspects. Its the only time I went to tournament play during 5th edition with deffrolla wagon rush, used to be hilarious blowing tanks you run into.

 

I miss the ability to customize your army to your HQ, warboss being able to take Manz as troops and meks being able to take dreads as troops. I feel it gave the army a bit of flavor (not as much as older books but still better than that pile of steaming sh!t that was 7th ed codex!!!!!)

 

 

Kan wall shenanigans was one of my most favorite ways to ruin a game  :lol.  How many lazcannons you got bruh? I loved those sorts of asymmetrical, all or nothing lists sometimes. If nothing else it actually kept lists honest in our campaigns. You could know I was taking orks but can you risk spamming heavy bolters? I really miss being able to take 'eavy armor on all the boys I wanted too. Why do orks have to be so limited when Guard can get all the flexibility and out number us. I'd sure love to put armor on my burna boys, especially since I still have a lot of converted 'eavy armor burnas from the olden days that look suspiciously heavily armored for 6+ saves.

 

The 4/5th codex was half good half lame. It gave us force org flexibility but took away as many tools as it added. I remember a lot of people here were just furious about lootas and looted wagons. I actually like the lootas quite a bit, I just wish they were a different unit and left us the option to steal weapons. I think though, it was the right move to make a box for them because it makes orks more accessible to new players. Then again some weapons sprues would have done the job too.

 

I was out for 6th/7th, so I don't even know what kind of mutilation we suffered. Less options, more mediocrity I'm sure.



#29
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Kan wall shenanigans was one of my most favorite ways to ruin a game  :lol.  How many lazcannons you got bruh? I loved those sorts of asymmetrical, all or nothing lists sometimes. If nothing else it actually kept lists honest in our campaigns. You could know I was taking orks but can you risk spamming heavy bolters? 

 

 

I used to play the same skumgrods during 5th ed, one particular skumgrod hated the fact that I constantly changed my list, he would tailor his list to fight kan spam from the previous week, to then be fighting a boyz horde list the week after. He would find himself fighting trukk spam or wagon rush at other games.

 

Only really works if you have a massive collection with most units from the codex. 

 

Was a great larf!


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Ork Tactics by Laughterofthegods

https://www.dropbox....actica.pdf?dl=0

 

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50985


#30
Boss Ardnutz

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Maybe that was the problem. In 5th a balanced, combined arms list just didn't work*. Trukks were actively a death trap and big boys mobs - while they were more survivable in movement - would get wiped out as soon as they hit combat, thanks to morale casualties. Interestingly, BW Brigade and nob bikers - both units I never fielded - were big causes of the anti-ork sentiment that meant putting my old ork army on the table meant taking an immediate sportsmanship hit, regardless of how I acted or how badly I lost.

There was some good in that book, true. Being able to shift MANz to troops was good. Being able to create a bike army was good (though I personally never did, but it was a good option to have). The SAG was a cool model (but never did more damage to the enemy than to my army when I fielded it). Deffkoptas were awesome if fragile, and lovely models just screaming for a proper multi part kit.

But for that we lost some really cool, effective and colourful units. The painboss and especially his cybork retinue, skarboyz, proper looted tanks, buggies with spikes & blades (never did much themselves, but watching the enemy tear themselves to pieces attacking them was always hilarious), properly customisable nobz in mobs.

* - maybe more accurately, I could never make it work.

#31
FlamingDeth

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I dunno, speed freeks in trukks with bike/non biker support seemed to do ok. For a while in 5th orks had a number of competitive, if super bland, army builds and play styles. More than my DA for sure, but then part of the danger of playing any beakie faction is ending up as Sace Beakies -1.

#32
Lexington

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I can agree that they should have left well enough alone with the star gods and found some other way to bring in the character with out wrecking that bit.

 

I'm always surprised (and a little frustrated) at how widespread this idea is in the 40K community. It's spread like some hideous memetic virus, a truth that was never a truth at all.

 

Anyway, once more, from the top - tin'eads could always have character.

 

The tin'ead consciousness hierarchy, wherein higher-tier tin'eads were much more individualized self-aware than those below them, did not begin life in the 5th Edition book. It's specifically outlined in the original 3rd Edition book. Like, very, very clearly. The book doesn't contain any examples of individualized warlords, sure, but the capacity was there.

 

The only things the 5th Ed tin'ead Codex added to the lore was an absurd amount of gaudy pop-Egyptian get-up and Mat Ward's inescapably terrible prose. What it took away from tin'eads was any useful reason to be on the battlefield. They've conquered scarcity, death and every other motivator for organized warfare. The only thing they should be doing is plopping a big "GET OFF MY LAWN" sign down on any planet they've got a claim to, kicking back, and taking in the sunshine.

 

Is Mat Ward bad for the GW fanbase? In my view the majority of the fanbase gets what it deserves, and it certainly deserves Mat Ward.

 

Welp. Siggin' that.


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"Gargrazz knew the importance of the dramatik paws, so he had been silent in mid-sentance for over three hours now."
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Is Mat Ward bad for the GW fanbase? In my view the majority of the fanbase gets what it deserves, and it certainly deserves Mat Ward.


#33
Dim_Reapa

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Also, Ward did what he always does. Took his intellectually and creatively inferior version, puffs it up as the only interpretation of that faction, makes the entire faction a caricature of that idea and wantonly tramples over decades of fluff, leaving gasping chasms filled with unresolved plot holes.

Considering the treatment of the Deceiver alone, Ward basically pissed on all existing fluff that wasn't written by him. As a writer for an established IP, that is the single biggest failure and "fuck you" you can give to an audience. Then people wonder why Ward is actively hated.
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#34
Garslag

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I found the article pretty interesting.  (I have the luxury of not caring a damn about Matt Ward, never having played an edition that he was involved in.)  Sort of agree with parts of it, sort of don't.  He nailed it when he talked about Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperial Technology.  Fuck yeah, man.  This has bugged me for ages, and I needed someone to lay it out clearly like that.  On the other hand he talks about Black Library writers being held to high standards - from what I've read of their stuff, the only standard is, "must be able to type." 

 

I found most of his conclusions plausible.  I don't know about the wisdom of advising GW writers to go and read Dune.  Would the IP benefit from more closely parroting another IP?  Seems unlikely.  But could they use one of these brand stewards?  Sure, probably.  If they could manage to hire one that wasn't a retard monkey fanboy himself.

 

I think the biggest trouble is that the original source material is too subtle for most people.  It is much easier to sell the Imperium when you can portray the beakees as glorious and honourable than by playing up the fact that you're fighting for a dude who kills 10,000 psykers a day to stay alive.  Stop telling me they're the good guys.  They're fucking fascists.  Going back to subtlety - it was kinda an undertone of that article that things is better now that we've got BL and whoever else to give us the definitive history, rather than havign to rely on these terrible, terrible unreliable narrators.  Fuck off.  The more unreliable narrators the better, I say.  The new narrators are unreliable too!  The difference is the old ones were deliberately constructed characters whose biases told us something about the universe.  Now we have Matt Ward and his bias.  I don't know what that tells us.  Still, even the RT books had vast tracts of text that were written completely out of character and were just, y'know, info dumps.  I don't know who told this guy that that sorta thing is new.

 

What means this ADB that he keeps going on about?


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#35
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Aaron Dembski-Bowden. He wrote a defence of “loose canon”. I will be getting to that nonsense very, very soon.

#36
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I found the article pretty interesting.  (I have the luxury of not caring a damn about Matt Ward, never having played an edition that he was involved in.)  Sort of agree with parts of it, sort of don't.  He nailed it when he talked about Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperial Technology.  Fuck yeah, man.  This has bugged me for ages, and I needed someone to lay it out clearly like that.  On the other hand he talks about Black Library writers being held to high standards - from what I've read of their stuff, the only standard is, "must be able to type." 
 
I found most of his conclusions plausible.  I don't know about the wisdom of advising GW writers to go and read Dune.  Would the IP benefit from more closely parroting another IP?  Seems unlikely.  But could they use one of these brand stewards?  Sure, probably.  If they could manage to hire one that wasn't a retard monkey fanboy himself.
 
I think the biggest trouble is that the original source material is too subtle for most people.  It is much easier to sell the Imperium when you can portray the beakees as glorious and honourable than by playing up the fact that you're fighting for a dude who kills 10,000 psykers a day to stay alive.  Stop telling me they're the good guys.  They're fucking fascists.  Going back to subtlety - it was kinda an undertone of that article that things is better now that we've got BL and whoever else to give us the definitive history, rather than havign to rely on these terrible, terrible unreliable narrators.  Fuck off.  The more unreliable narrators the better, I say.  The new narrators are unreliable too!  The difference is the old ones were deliberately constructed characters whose biases told us something about the universe.  Now we have Matt Ward and his bias.  I don't know what that tells us.  Still, even the RT books had vast tracts of text that were written completely out of character and were just, y'know, info dumps.  I don't know who told this guy that that sorta thing is new.
 
What means this ADB that he keeps going on about?



Dude... we all know the Orks are the only real good guys in the 40k universe.
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#37
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Maybe that was the problem. In 5th a balanced, combined arms list just didn't work*. Trukks were actively a death trap and big boys mobs - while they were more survivable in movement - would get wiped out as soon as they hit combat, thanks to morale casualties. Interestingly, BW Brigade and nob bikers - both units I never fielded - were big causes of the anti-ork sentiment that meant putting my old ork army on the table meant taking an immediate sportsmanship hit, regardless of how I acted or how badly I lost.

There was some good in that book, true. Being able to shift MANz to troops was good. Being able to create a bike army was good (though I personally never did, but it was a good option to have). The SAG was a cool model (but never did more damage to the enemy than to my army when I fielded it). Deffkoptas were awesome if fragile, and lovely models just screaming for a proper multi part kit.

But for that we lost some really cool, effective and colourful units. The painboss and especially his cybork retinue, skarboyz, proper looted tanks, buggies with spikes & blades (never did much themselves, but watching the enemy tear themselves to pieces attacking them was always hilarious), properly customisable nobz in mobs.

* - maybe more accurately, I could never make it work.

 

I don't have any experience past 5th, but it seemed to me that a balanced force works better for some factions than others. For us, I think our lack of durability behooves us to take extremes to mitigate all the devastating answers most races can bring to the table. And the rules in 5th seemed designed around other races, causing us collateral damage, like being fearless and losing in CC. Clearly to balance berzerkers in CC but it always punished us because we'd "lose" by taking more wounds, IIRC.

 

When I think back to orks, I think we're a race that "asks a question" versus offering answers, in the parlance of MMA, or to say that we offer a lot of threats but not a lot of responses. For example, tankbustas are (or were) pretty ineffective at actual tankhunting, with negative rules for them and offering nothing but S8 to try and deal with AV14. Mediocre range, no survivability, kind of expensive too. In the end most of us recommended CCing heavy vehicles with klaws and leaving the bustas at home, or shooting at light targets.

 

I remember when I started my fish'ead army, and suddenly I had serious firepower. S10, long range. Actually hit a target without saturation firepower. My enemy respected my firepower. To be fair everyone respected my lootas too. And the SAG even though it was useless  an active threat against myself. The threat of it made the opponent behave themselves. But anyway I had all kinds of specialized & effective answers against any kind of threat.

 

Contrast that when I'm running Green Tide or Kan Wall, and the strategy is usually to try and cross the table in one piece and CHARGE. Hell if I was running BW spam the strategy is... cross the table in one piece and CHARGE!. If I was running a firepower list, the strategy was... cross half the table in one piece to get in range, and fire. And then charge anyway.

 

I have to say though, I never had any serious anti-ork sentiment when I was playing people outside my normal play group. Except against nob bikers though. They were like a boogeyman at some point. We could get pretty creative with wound allocation too, but everyone did that, so you can't really complain. I do remember my SAG nailing someone's special character and a tank on the first turn, first thing I did (skipped move) and I just rolled I think double 6s or whatever it was that just removed whatever it hit that was in play. He was salty. SAG never did anything useful in any game ever again though. I still took it, because damnit I loved it, but the devs had no idea how to balance that thing. They costed it on the average of its potential, when it needs to be steeply discounted because of the highly random effect. To make a comparison with MTG again, long ago they figured out that cards with random effects or choose-your-fate were bad, so they're costed lower than spells that actually do the thing you want reliably. Other games figured that out too. In FoW Italians and Romanians have randomized quality for their infantry, but they're not priced like fearless vets.

 

I don't miss skarboys, but everything else, for sure. Especially taking spikes & blades on my lone buggy, ramming it into gaunts.



#38
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Aaron Dembski-Bowden. He wrote a defence of loose canon. I will be getting to that nonsense very, very soon.


Looks as though this article has disappeared from the Internet. Not sure whether that is maybe for the best. ...
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