New ork flyers discussion. (tactics, general discussion, etc), Top gun, June 2012 White Dwarf Options

[Mad Mek Snowfyre]

Heyo.

Now for whoever got their grubby hands on this month's issue of White Dwarf, you'd have known the 3 flyers.
else, go check Gaf-Naz's post here for rules http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=51391&st=40


But else, I'm somewhat got mixed feelings on these new official flyers. To me they kinda feel very gimmiky like a big flying glass cannon as an AV 10 flyer isn't that hard to bring down.


But my take is as follows so far:
1) Dakkajet --> so far my favourite. cheapest, and a lot of strength 6 shots at respectable range. surprisingly good BS for orks with their strafing rule.
2) Burna bomma --> a horde killer if you feel like mounting 6 skorcha missiles on it. pie-plate-festival that ignore cover.
3) Blitza bommer --> Sort of a gimmiky AT dive-bomber, though at a range of 12 (or 13") for single use bombz you may be better off getting a rolla-wagon unless you need more AT and have empty fast attack slots.

I only have one tactic to suggest, which is just getting them to pop up from reserve, WAAAGH! fire twice and get shot down
may work well with weirdboyz.


As for a trick, I notice that since they're fast skimmers, if you take the RPJ, you can move "Flat out" 13 and claim the 4+ cover but still be able to fire all their guns with the aerial assault rule. But I'm not sure if this is just being cheesy, though it's on the same lines as hitting a vehicle that moved 7" on a 6 while it shoots.


So what you think? any more ideas? tips, suggestions or general rants?

[angels_blade]

I agree, my favourite is the Dakkajet but there is no way you can move with RPJ and claim the 4+ cover as it clearly states you count as moving 1" slower than you actually do i.e 13" = 12" If you claim the 4+ cover your opponent will say fine but you cannot shoot as you must move over 12" to recieve the save

[urluck]

Anybody else get the feeling that these are going to be a bit better in sixth? Especially given the wording of things like to stormtalons hover mode?

[MaddaMek]

Anybody else get the feeling that these are going to be a bit better in sixth? Especially given the wording of things like to stormtalons hover mode?

For me recent increase of (already too high) Stormraven price by 25% (that's 16 bucks) is better evidence of air supremacy:0



I hope GW will increase cruising speed of "flyers" to 24". Otherwise bombers would be a joke.

I probably still would love Dakkajet. It's just damn good unit that can be shielded with KFF (in practice making it more resilient than much more expensive Razorwing, which is coolest non-transport flyer right now). Also being so "straightforward" (like Lootas) helps to build army around them.

[Badfang Brassaxe]

I agree, my favourite is the Dakkajet but there is no way you can move with RPJ and claim the 4+ cover as it clearly states you count as moving 1" slower than you actually do i.e 13" = 12" If you claim the 4+ cover your opponent will say fine but you cannot shoot as you must move over 12" to recieve the save

This has come up before
Kodex states that Ork vehicles with red paint can add an inch to their movement but do not incur penalties for this extra movement
40K rule book (admittedly AoBR) says when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position

I do find it puzzling that they've been classed as skimmers - can they move 0", if they want to shoot their weapons are they stuck to the same speed as a deffkopta or Warkopta, can they be assualted by charging footsloggas

EDIT Forgot to vote; Favourite has got to be the Blastabommer

[Boss Gobbstompa]

I would imagine a 0" movement would be an aerial maneuver, like a loop, immelman, or stall.

I could seriously see a homebrew set of rules for fliers, or even an official set of rules like Cityfight or Kill-team, that is similar to Aeronotica Imperialis, where it's more of a dogfight. I remember a scenario back in 3rd edition for skimmers and vehicles that was set up like a race where the terrain was moved from short-edge to short-edge 12" per turn, and the skimmers were set up to either not move, move forward 6" or 12" (for cruising or flat-out) or move backward 6" or 12" (combat or full-stop) and it would work like a high-speed chase/dog fight with all of the skimmers racing past the terrain, trying to get a bead on each other or out-pace their pursuers.

[nkelsch]

This is the best description of how 5th edition will work with RPJ and bommas:

To few rules quote here, as usual...

Aerial Assault: If the model moved at cruising speed it can fire all of its weapons. (Dakka Jet data sheet)

Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase, but do not incur penalties for the extra inch." (Codex: Orks and White Dwarf - exact same wording)

A vehicle that traves more than 6" and up to 12" is moving at cruising speed. (BRB pg. 57)

A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18" (BRB pg. 70)

Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons (BRB pg. 70)

A skimmer that is not immobilized and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured. (BRB pg. 71)

A dakka jet (or any other ork plane) moving 13" flat-out is nothing but a vehicle moving flat out. So you get a 4+ cover save and are hit on 6s(irrelevant). RPJ enables the plane to count as moving 12" to ignore penalties. If you count as moving 12", you also count as moving at cruising speed. If you try to ignore something that's not a penalty (like getting a 4+ cover save), you are breaking the rules.

But as said... assault uses distance moved as in displacement, not speed. So if you went flat out, but went in a loop and ended up 6" away from your last location, you are going to be hit in CC easier.

But this is all 5th edition crap which will probably be gone before we hit the tabletop with a painted plane.

Personally, I am trying to see if it is worth magnetizing or not. I can see myself wanting to play 3 dakkajets, but I want to model one of each for the modeling aspect. So do I get 5 jets? or do I get 3 and magnetize?

[Boss Gobbstompa]

Personally, I am trying to see if it is worth magnetizing or not. I can see myself wanting to play 3 dakkajets, but I want to model one of each for the modeling aspect. So do I get 5 jets? or do I get 3 and magnetize?

I'd go for magnetizing, but not just for the budgetary aspect. By magnetizing, you also have the option of turning them into their Imperial Armor cousins, the Fighta, Fighta-Bomma, Bomma, and Blasta-Bomma.

[Cossack]

What about the Blasta-Bomma? That's my favorite....

[Boss Gobbstompa]

What about the Blasta-Bomma? That's my favorite....

Agreed, I accidentally hit "Blitza Bomma" as my fave, accidentally reading it as Blasta-Bomma.

[GrogDaTyrant]

The only one I could be bothered to try, would be the Dakkajet. But IMHO, I don't like any of them. They're all painfully lackluster and overpriced as far as I'm concerned.

[Klawgut]

Our new flyers raise another issue!

I have 2 mobs of bikes to go with my Nob bokers and a Deffkopta for turn 1 assaults in my FA slots so cant fit a plane in there. The Stormtalon is aFA choice but Beakies are pretty flexible and with a balance could easily fit 1 in, Crons however get a better deal with the scythes being Heavy or dedicated transports!!

[Badfang Brassaxe]

Quote

A dakka jet (or any other ork plane) moving 13" flat-out is nothing but a vehicle moving flat out. So you get a 4+ cover save and are hit on 6s(irrelevant). RPJ enables the plane to count as moving 12" to ignore penalties. If you count as moving 12", you also count as moving at cruising speed. If you try to ignore something that's not a penalty (like getting a 4+ cover save), you are breaking the rules.

What is it about RPJ that's so difficult for people to get their heads round
1) It's an UPGRADE - it's supposed to benefit the person who's paying for it.
2) Being hit on a 6+ in CC and getting a 4+ cover save and getting to shoot all your weapons and not crashing and burning if you're immobilised are only penalties for your opponent - the geezer who isn't paying for the upgrade.

The way you're suggesting it plays, you're paying for a vehicle that will move an extra 4" in a four turn game (assuming it lasts that long) - WOW.

[MaddaMek]

Our new flyers raise another issue!

I have 2 mobs of bikes to go with my Nob bokers and a Deffkopta for turn 1 assaults in my FA slots so cant fit a plane in there. The Stormtalon is aFA choice but Beakies are pretty flexible and with a balance could easily fit 1 in, Crons however get a better deal with the scythes being Heavy or dedicated transports!!

Add Wazdakka (for scoring Bikers), Nobz, FA of Kopters and 2 planes.

Also good thinking about RPJ guys, I REALLY would consider getting that for Your bombers (which suddenly aren't as defenseless during bombardment, barring Hydras). Like "autoinclude" really; DE pilots always pick Flicker Field (5++) for 10 points, we get 4+ cover for half of that (requirement for movement is meaningless really and, in fact, can help learn new players to not-suck in movement phase).

I just solved great dilemma - how I'm gonna fit KFF, Wazzy and Warphead in my list. Pick best Mek around (Wazzy), kick other and add some Green Voodoo as cherry on top.

[Oldfart]

The only one I could be bothered to try, would be the Dakkajet. But IMHO, I don't like any of them. They're all painfully lackluster and overpriced as far as I'm concerned.

Here Here. It does not give us anything but 1 turn of shooting if were lucky. I would rather have kopters for Alpha striking naughty gaurd units.

Old Fart

[Greyhound]

It would have been nice if we could get one of these as a dedicated transport for Boss Zagstruk and the lads...

[Magus Gar Kan]

It would have been nice if we could get one of these as a dedicated transport for Boss Zagstruk and the lads...

Well they specify that the 'Da Vulcha' is a fighta-bomma, which is an Apocalypse/forgeworld unit.

And I will admit, I'm a little sad these are all alpha strike vehicles...but I really like them regardless. The dakkajet and blitza bomma are tied for favorites for me, one is utterly devastating against infantry/light tanks and the other is the best anti armor we have access to. While it is a shame that at best we only get in 2 turns of bombing with the Bommas, it's also unlikely we'd get more shots in anyway. Consider that you're prolly moving flat out on the first turn to get in position and the cover save, turn two you drop the bomb.

I'm prolly running a dakka jet and a blitza bomma in my normal list, if only for the fact I need fast moving high volume of fire against my current opponents... and with beakie saves in their armies the Burna Bomma stays home.

[Warboss Gorhack]

For fun, I'm all about the Blitza Bomma. I like the idea of splattering myself all over the roof of the vehicle I'm trying to dive-bomm.

For practicality I'm actually thinking the Burna Bomma. True, it's expensive for what you get. All our 'planes are.

From my perspective the Burna Bomma's no-cover antipersonnel attacks actually serve a purpose for us. Right now we've got no way yto reach out and touch horde-y troops in cover other than Skorchas and Burnas, which require us to be up close. The speed of the Burna Bomma will allow us to deliver some no-cover killyness deep behind enemy lines. The closest alternative is a skwadron of Skorchas; the jet provides significantly greater speed and a strong one-shot payload. A Burna Bomma is almost certain to drop it's load, whereas the much cheaper Skorchas are at risk of not getting to fire even once. Mobs of Burnas in a transport or transported/biker Nobs with Kombiskorchas are other possible substitutes. These options are somewhat (burnas) to considerably(Nobs) more survivable and are similar or higher in cost, but are less comparable because they serve other purposes. Well, sort of... if you're talking Burnas.

The reason I find the Dakkajet wanting is survivability and availability of comparable substitutes. Don't get me wrong, the firepower is good, especially when coupled with hitting side/rear armor during a Waaagh. The problem is that all our jets are alpha strike weapons, good for roughly one turn before they become flaming comets of swiss cheese. We want aircraft to deliver the bulk of their payload all in one go. Dakkajets would do that best if they could survive several turns.

Even with that, the Dakkajet's firepower is fairly attractive, but we have viable alternatives. Lootas deliver higher strength and similar volume of fire at long range with (arguably) more survivability - at least they get cover saves while shooting. We can get plenty of Big Shootas, shootas and other infantry-killing firepower without resorting to this expensive option.

My two teef,

Warboss Gorhack

[PhillyT]

I don't find the Dakkajet or Burna Bommer overpriced. 130 for 9 S6 isn't bad. As for survivability, start them in reserve if you don't get first turn, then go from there. If you have enough threats, I would be fine with folks throwing piles of shooting into the plane after it moves flatout. You can limit the number of shooters by choosing your flight path carefully and then rely on the 4+ cover save. Every shot on the plan is not going towards trukks, buggies, or wagons.

[Mad Mek Snowfyre]

Seems the consensus so far heavily leans towards the dakkajet.

Anyone ever conisidered the possibility that a fully-equipped burna bommer can launch 7 cover-ignoring AP 4 large blast templates in one turn if you're lucky? (6 skorcha missiles and one bomm)