Need help against tyranids Options

[Drobbit]

It's been 4-0 since he started to go with the same list and nothing I do seems to level.

Tyranids list (aprox):

- Tervigon

- 2x Genesteelers

- Termagant horde

- 2x Carnifex with tyranid prime.

- 2x Hive guards

The very problem here are the carnifex plus termagants horde (he is so lucky that tervigon never stops to spawn termagants. Carnifex go with brainleech worms whom they harm any approaching squad.
After trying to deal with those, Genesteelers appear to finish the job.

Any suggestion?

We play at 1000 and 1500 (more or less termagants/genesteelers, but the same list).

[ikken]

what are you currently running , and what models to you have available .
against bugs I would go mek .
flamer dread , bunch of kanz . with grot zukas or rookits . although bs3 st8 rookits would be handy for taking down his big bugs . so i would tend to favor rookits .
rookit buggies or schorcha buggies will also be usefull . 3 rookit buggies are about 150 points and give you 3 twin linkes st 8 shots a turn . they are manuverable enough to get round and get a shot at his hive guard .
shoota boyz will clean out the little bugs .

a truck full or nobz with pk and combi flamers would be handy .
then make sure you prioritize you targets .

try running a box formation on him .

2 squads of rookit kanz @ 150 pts per squad run 1 on the left and right of you box .

1 squad of 3 rookit buggies , @ about 150 pts to run around his flank and hit the hive guard .

1 flamer dread ( 2 flamers , 2 ccw , HA , GR), front and centre to deal with any thing coming up the centre .
100 pts

then shoota boyz and lots of them .
full squads of 30 with big shootas and a PK nob should be 235 pts a squad x 3 = 700 or so points ,

that is around 1250 points which leaves you some room for an HQ , maybe some mega nobs with flamers in a truck . or on foot . a kff big mek with flamer will be handy , it won't grant cover from the hive guard but will give cover from every thing else . but if you run a box formation most stuff will have cover any way .
a war boss in mega with BP to go with the mega nobz might be more useful , tough to tell .

in any event the kanz will block the gene stealers from assaulting you from the flanks , and can pick off the big bugs . rookit buggies swing round and go for the hive guard , and basically act like a distraction .
def dread runs forward , same with the mega nobz . every thing else walks up shoots .
that is alot of fire power for him to deal with .

these points are from memory so may not be 100% .

in a nut shell he will be cumming for you

[big mek tank kru...]

make sure you remember that independant characters can't join a unit of monstrous creatures (if i remember correctly) so the fexes can't be with the prime.

I'd roll out a couple of dreads, and a battlewagon or two with deff rollas and some rokkits to soak up the weapon destroyed hits. always move at least 7" each turn to fend off the CC attacks, and deffrolla anything in your path.
I'd load one battlewagon with burna boyz, though i'd hold off filling it with 15 in case something goes wrong (it's a lot of points) so put 10 or so in there, and then you'll probably need nobz in the other to get it with 2 dreads - allocate them up if you will, but prioritise powerklaws and kombi-skorchas.

if you roll 2 bigmeks out to maximise your walkers, take 2 dreads in troops with 1 skorcha & 3DCCW each, then kans on the flanks - genestealers hate 'em. the two results i find are:
genestealers get stuck in combat with the kans, allowing you to move away to shoot or roll in a countercharge, or
genestealers blow the kans up and lose a fair bit, with each model in their unit generally taking 2-3 S3 hits from the explosions. 3 hits each equates to 1 save each, which is 2/3 of their squad blown up.

if you have rokkits, focus them on the tervigon. your best bet is to shoot the tervigon before the gaunts (in each turn), as if you kill the tervy then gaunts get hurt. can't remember exact rules but i think its LD test on 3D6, losing models in relation to what they failed by. the only time to not do it in this order (IE shoot the gaunts first) is if you're unsure whether you're in range (so he could tactically remove gaunts from the front and deny your shooting/charging) or have just rolled a wagonload of burnas next to 'em, and want to hit as many as possible.

'fexes are pretty easy to krump, really, as any mob of boys will PK a fex to death. you just need to get close - BW's will help there.alternatively send your dreads at him - 2 dreads combining a charge at 'fexes is 5 or 6 (can't remember...) attacks each, no saves wounds on 2's. fexes can't do wound allocation, as they have to be equipped the same, so that should krump at least 1 fex. megadreads are also amazing at this, and can take on the less-krumpy MC's of the nids with relative impunity i find (half a chance to glance, 5+ invuln and we attack first - i can live with that!).

[jerryrich77]

here is a goofy alternative to dealing w/ bugs. Tank busters. no kidding these guys should be called bug zappers. that many rokkits at any MCs will kill it eventually. barring bad rolls, no more than 2 rounds do carnies usually last to tank buster. it looks like your opponent is trying build an anto horde list. go mek, lossa flamers in trukks/ BWs would ruin his day too. I love to pop some flamer commandos up next to him SO fun, this even works against stealers as long as they dont break the first unit they attack. I've brought my commandoes in on my side of the board befre to counter some stealers.

Other than GK i play alot of Nids, i almost always have either commandos or Tankbusters in my list for this exact thing. if i know im gettin a game but not what army i always make sure i have at least one of these 2 units in my army (against that friend anyway).

[Goregut]

As stated before, rokkits and burnas do the trick here. Orks can spam both of these pretty easily. The Monstrous creatures can't easily have a cover save, so every rokkit that hits, is almost an guaranteed wound thanks to AP 3. And battlewagons are pretty hard for nids to take out with their shooting. His hive guard have str 8 and so they need 6's to glance. Just bring the battlewagon and burnas inside close enough, and unleash your drive by barbeque on his Sv 5+ (aka no save) genestealers.

[killercroc]

make sure you remember that independant characters can't join a unit of monstrous creatures (if i remember correctly) so the fexes can't be with the prime.

Actually, the rule is Independent characters cannot join units that only ever consist of only one model, besides other IC. Carnifex are 1-3 so they can join. It's just that this is the first MC unit so it confuses people.

[Drobbit]

Thanks to all.

I'm very limited since I have not all the models and sometimes not enought of the ones I have.

I'm building 10 burnas and I just have one dread and 3 kans.

But check out this list I builded with your thoughts:

H.Q.
- Mek with KFF and Burna

TROOPS:
- 30 shoota boyz
-- 3 Rokkitz
-- Nob PK/BP

- 19 shoota boyz
-- Nob PK/BP

- Dread
-- CCW
-- Skorcha

FAST:
- Warbuggie
-- Twin linked rokkitz

- Kopta
-- Twin linked rokkitz

- Kopta
-- Twin linked rokkitz

HEAVY:
- 3 Killa Kans with Grotzooka

- Battlewaggon
-- Deff Rolla
-- Rokkit

[Nork]

Strangely enough I just played against a friends nids last night.

Genestealers don't have grenades (or the equivalent) so sit behind or in cover and make them assault you, shoota boys are good for this, the idea is that they lose their initiative and the boys go first even with I2, with massed attacks you should make short work of them.

If the fex's are with the prime then that's bound to hurt because my response to fex's is to assault them, they are initiative 1 if you charge them so there's at least a chance that you can kill it before it hits back.

Jerryrich77 has the idea though, against an army that has no vehicles, the vehicle mad orks become totally controllable rokkit orks. Also, don't forget tankhammers and that cheaper klaw, while they still get their armour against a tankhammer it will insta-kill any toughness 5 or less.

The rest i'm afraid i'm less experienced with.

[jerryrich77]

put some of them now controlable tank busters in a BW or truck and do drive bys, then assault...... oooh, i think i made a happy green mess.....

one of the last games i played before i deployed my friend got smart and took a whole bunch of Gargoyles and shooty nids, that was a much tuffer fight, the gargoyles did drivebys and we both just slugged it out just outside of charge range neither one of us wanting to get charged. Nids can shoot pretty well against us. the jerk used my own tactics agains me. I guess the bugs can evolve fairly quick.

with that list i'd try to suicide the copters agains the tervigon, buggy at terv if the copters dont kill it then as a distraction for something else, then bases on the mission, move everything up slowly so you can shoot the baheebies outa the bugs. keep your cans on one side and the dread on the other, that should deter his stealers from poppon in on the sides of ya. TANK SHOCK the lil stuff. its AWSOME!!!!!! bring good wiper fluid, ever driven through a cloud of mosquitos? Have fun, personally i think fights w/ Nids are some of my favorites, what could be cooler, 2 races out to recolonize the universe clashing on one planet!!!!!! GREEN IS BEST!

[Drobbit]

Don't have any tankbusta but soon I'll get some. It's curious to try these against tyranids.

Do you think it's better a truck spam or a horde against them?

[big mek tank kru...]

Don't have any tankbusta but soon I'll get some. It's curious to try these against tyranids.

Do you think it's better a truck spam or a horde against them?

well you really need to stay away from the board edges against nids, and speed is vital if you can't withstand a charge - so either full mobs with kans protecting the flanks, or trukks. personally i roll shootas in battlewagons, so trukks would be a logical step down from that for me. personally i hate having to move tonnes of models, so i stick with transports.

i've found having trukks available is a pretty good thing too - if your trukkboyz get out to charge something, make sure you keep the trukk close for a quick re-embarking, or send it off to pick up a stranded unit. i once had a game in which my nobz with warboss went through 3 trukks and a battlewagon against nids. the swarmlord blowing up the trukks took out most of his army, including 1 and-a-half of his tyrant guard, and then a multicharge from his genestealers and the swarmlord resulted in 1 dead swarmlord, 1 dead tyrant guard, 10 dead genestealers and 1 dead nob - i like to think that the swarmlord was somewhat out of breath by this point. fact is there would have been a whole horde of hormogaunts were it not for those exploding trukks - they're the best weapon i've used for clearing out tyranids

[jerryrich77]

Big Mek Tank Krusha: That is Awsome! im a slogger by nature but it never occured to me to hope for a vehicle explosion!!! LOL

[Drobbit]

Yes it is HAHAHA

very orkish indeed

[Mad Mek Snowfyre]

vs bugs, tankbustas are surprisingly effective. they shred the big bugs and warriors especially hate them. only the 2+ tyrants and the tyrannofex are harder to shoot down.

Stealers' hit hard but their major weakness is lack of frags. hide in cover and if they charge any decent unit of boyz they get mutilated first.


I also recommend grotzooka kanz. they annihilate the gaunts (even when the trevagon gives them FNP) and they can hurt the bigger bugs well too. stay away from hive guard though.



Things to look out for when fighting bugs:
1) Terminate the Trevagon if it has FNP ability. use rokkits, lootas... or charge it. beware that it commonly sports a large blast template.
2) Carnis die if you charge them too... surprisingly enough.
3) use kanz to lock up big gaunt squads (especially hormagaunts) if you need to create a buffer to slow down his big bugs.
4) Stick to cover if you're near the sides
5) beware of parasite

also
6) Regarding hive guard: Note that by FAQ, hive guards that lurk cannot shoot anything that is not in LOS. they will shoot at closest visible target. they can only use the no-los-fire if they aren't lurking. meaning if they stay out of LOS there's a decent chance they'd not fire unless he babysits with warriors, or if they're in LOS, terminate with lootas (3+ to wound, ignores their armour)

[Warboss Gorhack]

I really like Burnas and Skorchas against bugs. Ignoring cover is good. Ignoring our BS2 is better.

Burnas in a vehicle can wipe out anything u to a Genestealer they come up against, and will do fair damage to even the big stuff assuming three or more hits per burna.. A skwadron of Skorchas will do even better because it's a throwaway unit. Get around the flank or rear of a mob of 'stealers or 'Gants and watch the frustration. If he takes time to charge you he'll probably kill you... but... you just took him a turn in the wrong direction, which means it'll take him that much longer to reach your main mob. I've actually been surprised with the survivability of a skwadron moving over 6"... since he needs sixes to hit and all. If he ingores you you can flambee him again next turn.

Tankbustas really are ideal against Bugeyes for all the reasons Snowy gave. This is about the only army where 'Glory Hogs' can't hurt you.

My two teef,

Warboss Gorhack

[Murrdox]

vs bugs, tankbustas are surprisingly effective. they shred the big bugs and warriors especially hate them. only the 2+ tyrants and the tyrannofex are harder to shoot down.

I disagree. I've used Tankbustas against my friend's Nids many times. They always suck. They are usually lucky to get off 3 volleys of Rokkits after they're in range before their transport is destroyed and they're assaulted. Usually it's only 1 or 2 volleys. Even then with Ork BS, a unit of 10 Tankbustas is only going to get 3 hits if he's lucky. Then whatever you're firing at may have a cover save (if you're talking about Warriors). I'm not saying they won't slap a few wounds on some Monstrous Creatures, but you are better off with the points using either Rokkit Buggies or Kans with Rokkits.

I also recommend grotzooka kanz. they annihilate the gaunts (even when the trevagon gives them FNP) and they can hurt the bigger bugs well too. stay away from hive guard though.

Totally agree. Grotzookas are awesome. Keep your Kans away from Hive Guard if you can help it... especially since the new Tyranid FAQ says that the Hive Guard weapons aren't affected by the KFF, so you can't protect your Kans like you normally can.

Things to look out for when fighting bugs:
1) Terminate the Trevagon if it has FNP ability. use rokkits, lootas... or charge it. beware that it commonly sports a large blast template.
2) Carnis die if you charge them too... surprisingly enough.
3) use kanz to lock up big gaunt squads (especially hormagaunts) if you need to create a buffer to slow down his big bugs.
4) Stick to cover if you're near the sides
5) beware of parasite

The Tervigon sucks in CC. Assault it with Boyz or a unit of Kans or a Dread. It goes at I1 and has a crappy WS. Use Lootas or Rokkits to whittle down a few wounds early in the game so that when you Assault it you can kill it in one go, and it won't be a tarpit.

Carnifexes also die in CC. They just don't have a high enough number of attacks to deal with the Boyz.

You CAN use Kanz to slow down Guants, but it's usually not good to do so. Your Kans are more dangerous when they're firing. If your opponent manages to tarpit your Kans with a bunch of Guants, your OPPONENT actually has the upper-hand.

Never played against the Parasite, can't really comment on it.

A Kan Wall list is really hard for Tyranids. You've got a decent one going already. Keep going with it.

[Mad Mek Snowfyre]

Big Mek Tank Krusha: That is Awsome! im a slogger by nature but it never occured to me to hope for a vehicle explosion!!! LOL

Lol yes, exploding trukks... I remember long past fighting bugs in the previous edition of orks was tough, I resorted to speeding skorcha buggies in their face, right in front of their small bugs in a line... especially the stealers. cause if they DO manage to damage it there's a decent chance it will actually detonate. also blocks them from moving if they Don't take it out... and burns a few to boot.

Funny when it happens but I have used a single skorcha buggy to decimate a genestealer squad. (half died to burning, they charged, it detonated, killed even more)


As for kanz vs gaunts.. that depends on situation. see, if there's a huge gaunt unit, you can use the melee to slow down his big bugs cause they can't fit as you're just surrounded by bugs, forcing the big bugs to take a detour and buying you a turn or two to shoot them more. especially if he's using the small bugs as a charge shield. Though technically your kanz can shred any of the I1 MCs there is (i.e. everything cept the trigon, mawlock and tyrants I think)

Also differenciate between hormagaunts and termagaunts when doing this. avoid sending boyz into poisoned hormagaunts. you tend to get shredded. kanz can annihilate those without taking much damage. Termagaunts are generally used for charge-shielding, screening, holding objectives and random shooting, unless they're upgraded the gun (aka devil-gaunts) which are expensive, fragile, but pump out 3 str 4 shots EACH.

Tankbustas vs rokkit buggies well, tankbustas get more shots off though, point-for-point, harder to hide from buggies. also buggies don't run and can act as a wall. Vs bugs is one of the few times footslogging tankbustas is actually useful. in general, Prioritise warriors, hive-guard then MCs. You'd rarely get to use them vs hive guard generally. PK nob there can be useful.

[Drobbit]

Nice advices!
I'll try to build a decent truck spam with shoota unit in battlewaggon and burnas and tankbustas in trucks.
I'll try to keep three kanz and the dreadnough.

What about bikes and stormboyz against tyranids? None of you mentioned them

[Murrdox]

I've used Stormboyz with Boss Zagstruk to GREAT effect against Tyranids. The strategy is to get into his rear lines, and hit his bugs in the back that are behind his wall of Monstrous Creatures and Gaunts. Mostly what I'm talking about here are Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, and Biovores. ESPECIALLY Hive Guard. Deep Striking next to his Hive Guard and assaulting them with a bunch of Stormboyz is just awesome. Bonus points if you can multi-assault a Hive Guard and a Tervigon or something else. Just tarpit as much as you can. Zagstruk only gets his PowerKlaw attacks the turn he charges, so if he gets stuck in combat, you're stuck without a PowerKlaw, which really sucks. HOWEVER, Zagstruk's morale ability will ensure that your opponent has to kill each and every one of your Stormboyz, which means you'll tarpit whatever you assault for potentially SEVERAL turns if you assault with a full group of 15 Stormboyz.

I have also used Nob Bikers and Warbikers against Nids, and they are not cost-effective at all. Monstrous Creatures wipe them out in Assault, and they die way too easily to a mass of really cheap Termigaunts with poisoned weapons thanks to a nearby Tervigon. Hive Guard will also wipe them out (again thanks to the new FAQ) since their Exhaust Cloud won't give them a cover save.