Leman Russ Based Army, Killkannons on BAttlewagons Options

[Da Kommizzar]

I have brought awesomeness to the Boomwagon and to Deffkoptas among my gaming groups. I am going to try and prove the worth for the Killkannon wielding Battlewagon. Comments and Suggestions would be great!

HQ
Big Mek w/ KFF
Big Mek w/ KFF
Troop
19 shootaboys, nob w/ pk, bp
19 shootaboys, nob w/ pk, bp
*19 shootaboys, nob w/ pk, bp
Fast Attack
3 warbuggies w/ rokkits
3 warbuggies w/ rokkits
3 warbuggies w/ rokkits
Heavy Support
Battlewagon w/ Killkannon, *Ard Case, *Big Shoota, *Ram, *grotriggers (The Battlewagon without a bigmek)
Battlewagon w/ Killkannon , *Ard Case, *Big Shoota, *Ram
Battlewagon w/ Killkannon , *Ard Case, *Big Shoota, *Ram
*Drop these to go down to 1255

Why Killkannons?
-They are unpopular
-Despire the short range, they are protected and coupled with a KFF do not have to worry to much about death too soon.
-Str7 may not worry heavy vehicles, it still wipes out transports, MEQs, and infantry.
-I want to have my ork version of the leman russ match that of the imperial one. (Just because the orkz took it over does not mean that the AV disappeared!)
-It should be fun and fluffy for Blood Axes!

[Nork]

So at first glance it looks like you want a fairly mobile army there. Of course when I look again I see that it's going to be either spread out or moving a bit slower, seeing as all those BW's can only hold 12 models each and your troops are 19 a piece, 20 with a BM.

Of course that would make sense from a conversion point of view, if you're running looted russ' as BW's.

You could run a couple of squads of 11 boys and one of 12 and that's the wagons full (-138 points). I'd drop the Ard Case because if I have shoota boys then they may as well be able to shoot (-45 points for total -183 adjustment). Add another 12 shoota boys, nob, pk , bp, trukk with riggers (+152 points, -31 total). Add riggers to the two other BW's because it's nice to be able to repair a gun and imobilised at the same time, or even better, have two chances to repair imobilised in a turn (+10 points, -21 total). Still have a few points to play with too.

[laughterofgods]

I have no experience with this in regards to a killkannon, but you might consider dropping the ard case and keep your BW's open topped. This will allow you to shoot out of the BW with your troops, and assault after moving 12 inches if you need to. Sure, it is only 12 models shooting, but that is better than nothing.

I would also drop one of your Big Meks, and get a warboss. This will turn a Nobz unit into a scoring unit. You can then make a beefy unit of Nobz that won't suffer from having less than 12 models. This also nets you a BW as a dedicated transport meaning you can put one of your Looted wagons back in the list for more template fun.

Lastly, you might think about using a unit of 11 or 12 Burnas. Again, if you keep the vehicle open topped you can move 6 inches, fire the killkannon, and burninate something all without getting out of your transport.

[Da Kommizzar]

The point was to not put anything into the Battlewagons (Except the Meks for the 4+ save on the vehicles and 5+ on any nearby troops). In summary, use them as Leman Russes, not transports!.

[Gobsmakk'd]

If you are not putting anything into the BW's and just want some Leman Russes, then for 50 pts less each you can get an identically-kitted Looted Wagon, and a 50% longer-ranged gun with a higher strength, albeit with thinner armour.

Just a suggestion, but that frees up a whole lotta points to flesh out the rest of your army in any number of ways.

[det]

I use them frequently in my "mech mek's" list, see my sig. Honestly though they work as transports first and firebase second, but they get their job done.

[Da Kommizzar]

If you are not putting anything into the BW's and just want some Leman Russes, then for 50 pts less each you can get an identically-kitted Looted Wagon, and a 50% longer-ranged gun with a higher strength, albeit with thinner armour.

Just a suggestion, but that frees up a whole lotta points to flesh out the rest of your army in any number of ways.

You probably decided not to read my introduction.....

I have brought awesomeness to the Boomwagon and to Deffkoptas among my gaming groups.

I have already made a name for Boomwagons in my gaming group, trying something less popular/ different!

The purpose of battlewagons with killkannons was to be like a leman russ. The best AV we have with a big nasty gun on the top!

Thanks for the reference for inspiration Det!

[Magus Gar Kan]

The only downside is the whole fact that the Killkannon is essentially an ordnance autocannon... with a really crappy range.

If you're going to do this, then try to run them like this:

Killkannon, 'ardcase, red paint, Armor plating, *big shoota, **grot rigger, ***Dethrolla

*upgrade to a Kannon if you have the points, as it gives you a fallback weapon while the Killkannon is blown off.
**If you have the points, always put one on as there's no downside to moving and it gives you a second chance to repair immobilized if the mek fails, or a way to repair immobilized if the mek fixes something else.
***If you have the points, put this on them... the reason is that the rams don't do much for an av 14 tank and should you be shaken or stunned (hence the armor plates), it will give you a really nasty use for them. Alternatively it could also be a preemptive attack should you only declare a 7" tankshock, then follow it up with shooting the Killkannon.

[Gobsmakk'd]

You probably decided not to read my introduction.....

I have already made a name for Boomwagons in my gaming group, trying something less popular/ different!

The purpose of battlewagons with killkannons was to be like a leman russ. The best AV we have with a big nasty gun on the top!

Oh, I read it and I am always one for doing things differently purely for fun. It's just that in this particular case, at this points level, I think it's a lot of points that could be used elsewhere.

Good luck and enjoy the games.

[Da Kommizzar]

***If you have the points, put this on them... the reason is that the rams don't do much for an av 14 tank and should you be shaken or stunned (hence the armor plates), it will give you a really nasty use for them. Alternatively it could also be a preemptive attack should you only declare a 7" tankshock, then follow it up with shooting the Killkannon.

The ram is so that being immobilized by difficult terrain becomes 1/36 chance.

Points better used elsewhere? Points better used ELSEWHERE? How could that work in a themed list? We have no other Leman Russ equivalent vehicles! The killkannon was the only thing it could take that was close enough to a Russ. IF they could take boomguns, I would faint.

[Zagruk]

Bloodaxes? Without kommandos? Well I never.
I have a modelling suggestion, why not have your wagons as leman russes pulling a trailer full of boyz?
Would make it obvious its a wagon without ruining the awesome look of the russ.

I'm assuming the buggies are going to be screening the boy'z advance? Seems a waste of their speed if you ask me. It also won't be as effective as a kan wall because they're open topped and only AV10.
I also think you should run mobs of thirty boyz. If they're not getting in the wagons, it seems daft to limit them at 20.

Also bear in mind your max shooting range is 24'', and you'll be moving so slow it might genuinely be a problem. It depends what army you play against, but still something to consider.

Good luck.

[Da Kommizzar]

Zagruk,
-Blood axe I suppose. Could be anything really. Like an Armoured Krumpany using standard rules. Blood axe for the whole "Imperial Vehicle" theme, and I don't trifle with thieving Deathskull gitz.
-Interesting suggestion for wagons. Thanks for the idea.
-Buggies are for maneuving to hit the enemy tanks and MCs, not as a screen for boys.
-Boys will march alongside the killkannons and getin there.
-Mobs of 20 to allow versatility in where units can go and how many mobs I have.
-I am fully aware of the range of this gun. It is the range of a bolter when it comes to lobbing shells.

[Magus Gar Kan]

The ram is so that being immobilized by difficult terrain becomes 1/36 chance.

Still, if you have the extra points, seriously consider putting deffrollas on them as they still get the terrain reroll and gain versatility in the process.

[Zagruk]

Ok, if the buggies are ranging ahead short range isn't so much of a problem.
It does leave your boyz awfully vulnerable though.
Maybe you could bunch your wagons together so they block line of sight, and the boyz march behind them?
They break away once they're close enough to unleash the dakka.

I'm not saying reduce the number of mobs, why not try to free up some points and up the three mobs to thirty? If they're walking alongside/behind the wagons its not like they need to slip through cover or anything. And you ought to seeing as they'll be all out in the open.
Templates will really ruin your day bearing in mind you'll be moving slower, so they'll have more turns to blast you.

[Da Kommizzar]

I could reduce number of boys per mob considerably and take trukks for each, adding protection and mobility to the boys. Allowing Leman Russes to head off on their own. (Or this list could just be a variant of the original list.)

HQ
Big Mek w/ KFF
Big Mek w/ KFF

Troop
11 Ard Boys, Nob w/ PK, BP
Trukk w/ Ram
11 Boys, Nob w/ PK, BP
Trukk w/ Ram
11 Boys, Nob w/ PK, BP
Trukk w/ Ram

Fast Attack (Buggies Range ahead)
3 warbuggies w/ rokkits
3 warbuggies w/ rokkits
3 warbuggies w/ rokkits

Heavy Support
Battlewagon w/ Killkannon, Ard Case, Big Shoota, Ram, grotriggers (Big Mek)
Battlewagon w/ Killkannon , Ard Case, Big Shoota, Ram, grot riggers (Big Mek)
Battlewagon w/ Killkannon , Ard Case, Big Shoota, Ram, grot riggers
-1500

Advantages:
-Fast/Mobile
Disadvantages
-Lacks numbers a lot

Possible change-ups:
-Remove Ardcase from Wagons, trukk mob, and Eavy Armour to allow troops in wagons.

[Zagruk]

So the trukks ride up amongst the buggies? That would give them some cover. 36 Boyz at 1500 is...optimistic though.
Just letting the boyz ride in the wagons would solve all your problems. And its not like it would really affect how you use them.

[MaddaMek]

I like general idea but for some reason both list seems for me like they... pretend to be shooty.


IMHO Kannon + 4 BSes would work WAY better than Killkannon (ie. You don't want to have stuff inside, so You probably don't need to move too much either) for 30 points less (x3, that's 90 points, 6% of Your point limit, not much but there are other things...)
You have only 3 troops. Three, if I can use word.
Also, apart form 3 Killkannons (good, but don't negate cover or have enough shots to don't care) and 9 buggies (or three *chances* to kill tank) You have... nothing.

Here is my take:

SAG Mek, Ammorunt (Better buy than KKannon)

4 Lootas, KMB Mekboy (for real)
4 Lootas, KMB Mekboy

10 Boyz(9 + Nob, RL, Bosspole, Klaw )
Trukk (RL, Ram)
10 Boyz(9 + Nob, RL, Bosspole, Klaw )
Trukk (RL, Ram)
10 Boyz(9 + Nob, RL, Bosspole, Klaw )
Trukk (RL, Ram)
10 Boyz(9 + Nob, RL, Bosspole, Klaw )
Trukk (RL, Ram)

2x Rokkitbuggy
2x Rokkitbuggy
2x Rokkitbuggy

Leman Rust (heh), Kannon, 3 BS, Grot Riggers (just in case).
Battlewagon, Kannon, 3 BS, Grot Riggers
Battlewagon, Kannon, 3 BS, Grot Riggers

And You have 95 points left for adjustments.

It slightly modify idea ( static OT BWs with Mek/Lootas) but it have more troops, more AT, more AI, BW have Mektools inside and somehow it's cheaper.
KFF is not obsolete if You deploy BW in area terrain/ behind partial cover.

To be quite honest above list is quick butt-product so probably there is even better way to do it...

[Da Kommizzar]

The point of, and the only point of the KKannon is the fact that it is the gun that is closest to Battlecannon Russ. They both have similar AV and main gun, followed by Big Shoota to pretend to be a heavy bolter. (Ork version of Leman Russ)

I think the point that everyone keeps missing is that: I am trying to make a name for Killkannons like I did for Boomguns and Rokkit-koptas amongst my gaming groups. AND if it is based off of leman russes, it has to take atleast the biggest, baddest pie plate it can take.... in this case a killkannon each.

What I wish I could do was take Killkannon wagons or Lootedwagons and then take battlewagon transports for my shootaboys. This would have mobility, dakka, numbers, and protection for the lads. All I would have to do is ditch the warbuggies to give all three mobs of boys wagons.. but nooooo, GW has to make only nobz wagon-permitable. *sigh* Fantasy lives on as a fantasy.

[mort]

I've used a list consisting of a Looted Wagon with Boomgun, a Killkannon wagon and 1/2 extra wagons with Deffrollas, 1 Kannon and 4 BS option. 20 Shootaboys in the deffrolla wagons, and some guys in the killkannon wagon. Sometimes KFF mek with some Nobz/MANZ(transport switching), sometimes 12 grotz.

The killkannon has proven itself many times over the Boomgun. Sure it is a weaker gun, but the survivability and the fact that you have complete control of the thing ("Dont press that" often kicks in when you really want to shoot!) is really great. I would not choose one over the other, mainly because they can be threatening to different targets. Using those two together is the best option.

If you do run the killkannon wagon you really want at least a 12 grotz unit inside those. Suddenly you have AV14 Tank able to capture objectives! 12 Shootaboys could do as well.

[Da Kommizzar]

Interesting points there mort, some optimistic advice for Killkannons, just I will have to overlook the boomwagons as I am restricting the list from them.