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> Trying and Discussing the New Paints, ...this is the thread for it!
Agatheron
post Apr 5 2012, 05:41 PM
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Hi Everyone,

While we've discussed this in the Mek's Garage and Fungus Beer House, a right and proppa discussion of the new paints should truly belong here in the Tekneeks an' Know-Wots.

I had a chance to try them the other day, but today I managed to get my hands on four pots 2 days early. smilingOrk.gif I also got my hands on the "How to Paint" book, which I'll do a different thread on later. I brought them home and decided to give them a try. For starters I decided to pick up Ceramite White, the white paint in the "Base" line. Base paints are the new foundations in the paint line. I figured since my supply of foundations isn't bad, I'd round out what I don't have. The other three I picked up were all shades: Nuln Oil (Black), Agorax Earthshade (Brown), and Casandora Yellow. I decided that Nuln Oil and Agorax Earthshade were for a direct comparison to Badab Black and Devlan Mud, while Casandora Yellow is the first truly "yellow" wash/shade of its type.

Anyway, I tried out the Ceramite White first, and wow. It does work as advertized. I used my usual painting consistency, and paint covered exceptionally well. Two coats and you couldn't tell if there was black underneath.

Here's how it turned out on some Dreadfleet ships. I painted the dirigible in the Dwarf Ship and the Auxillary with the white, and the flag on the small Auxillary. In the case of the ship in the middle, I had forgotten to paint the flag, which I had intended to be the same colour as the sail. The sail is painted with several layers of yellow using the technique from 'eavy Metal... take note of that for later:



It isn't the best pic, but as you can see, very solid coverage in very short order. I'd still suggest 2 coats of this stuff for whatever you're working on. That having been said, it dried quickly, so I didn't have to wait too long for a second coat.

On to the washes. I tried the Casandora Yellow first. Don't let the bottle fool you. It looks orange in the bottle:



Seriously, don't let it fool you. Here's how it turned out, alongside the Nuln Oil over the Dirigibles:


The Nuln Oil behaves like Badab Black, but a bit better. It still greyed down the white, which I expected. But the yellow... Wow... it looked easily as good as the yellow on the sail, if not a bit better... and simply 2 steps. I can see a lot of Bad Moon Players using this technique... it's FAST and it works.

While I didn't take a picture of it, I used regular skull white to bring back up the Dirigibles, and it took really four layers to blend it up over the grey to an acceptable level.

Now for Agorax Earthshade:

On the Khemri Boat, the hull is made to look like a thatched Egyptian style hull. I basecoated it with Dheneb Stone:


Then a single coat of the Agorax Earthshade... two pics, first is how it looks wet, and how it dries:



As you can see, flows very nicely...

I think these new paints have some real potential, but be selective in what you buy. Get what you need... the big thing is figuring that out!

I'll talk about the book a bit later when I've had a chance to really go over it.






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Gaf-Naz
post Apr 5 2012, 06:42 PM
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Thanks for posting this Aga. thumbs.gif

The yellow shade does look very promising. It's hard to tell from the pics - does it just tint the white base a flat yellow or does it provide shading as well?

Looking forward to a review of the painting book.

cheers.gif


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Agatheron
post Apr 5 2012, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Gaf-Naz @ Apr 5 2012, 05:42 PM) *
Thanks for posting this Aga. thumbs.gif

The yellow shade does look very promising. It's hard to tell from the pics - does it just tint the white base a flat yellow or does it provide shading as well?

Looking forward to a review of the painting book.

cheers.gif


It provides shading as well... I think so far the Ceramite White and the Casandora Yellow could be considered "revolutionary" or perhaps more modestly "evolutionary" when it comes to painting. Reducing bright yellows from what was often a multi-step process to a 2 or 3 step process at best is certainly a bonus. For some people, you can just skip the Ceramite White, prime the model white, and wash it with the Shade... and you're done... or you can highlight a bit if you really want to. smilingOrk.gif


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______Agatheron \_______
--Remember, long, uncontrolled bursts,
and indiscriminate target selection.
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Gaf-Naz
post Apr 5 2012, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Agatheron @ Apr 6 2012, 01:04 AM) *
It provides shading as well... I think so far the Ceramite White and the Casandora Yellow could be considered "revolutionary" or perhaps more modestly "evolutionary" when it comes to painting. Reducing bright yellows from what was often a multi-step process to a 2 or 3 step process at best is certainly a bonus. For some people, you can just skip the Ceramite White, prime the model white, and wash it with the Shade... and you're done... or you can highlight a bit if you really want to. smilingOrk.gif

Thanks! Sounds very promising. I'll have to go pick some up Saturday. cheers.gif


--------------------
Ork Town III - Terrain building competition, sponsored by Ramshackle Games.

Do you need some 6th edition fortifications for your army, a new terrain piece or an 'armies on display' board?

Then build it, paint it, post it and move into "da orkiest town in da ooniverse", and have the chance of winning a prize!
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Urtyfist Gorok
post Apr 6 2012, 10:10 AM
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i cant wait to try the GOLD ughh, ok so you are saying a white prime and a yellow shade looks like a proppa yellow?


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Agatheron
post Apr 6 2012, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE (Urtyfist Gorok @ Apr 6 2012, 09:10 AM) *
i cant wait to try the GOLD ughh, ok so you are saying a white prime and a yellow shade looks like a proppa yellow?


Yes. Bad Moon players are going to be VERY happy. smilingOrk.gif

I'll have to build up a list of colours that I'm gonna need. Piecemeal is the key.

I've not seen the DVD from the book yet, but I can say that the book is all about getting decent looking armies painted up quickly. The White Dwarf article on Space Wolves is an example of what you can expect in the book. Since my next Fantasy army will be painting up both Skaven and High Elves from the starter box, I will be collecting paints from that area. I think that I may be looking to spray the high elves in Celestra Grey as my working base coat. smilingOrk.gif


--------------------
______Agatheron \_______
--Remember, long, uncontrolled bursts,
and indiscriminate target selection.
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MaddaMek
post Apr 10 2012, 07:47 PM
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Hey guys, I've found this video today, a review from owner of one of biggest online shop in Poland (no "ad", he sell and use on vids Vallejo and P3 in addition to GW). I think he is roughly on Aga's mastery level so I admire his opinion despite "personal things" from my Mod times on his forum. Oh well, he have terrible accent pphhtork.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyLGC4cK6lQ...feature=channel


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Agatheron
post Apr 10 2012, 11:15 PM
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I'm familiar with his review... and admittedly I found it very infuriating... because he seemed to go into this review fully intending to slag the new paint line, without stopping for a moment and thinking about what the types of paints are intended to do. In addition, I found that when he was pulling the new paints out to compare them against similar tones, he would mash the brush a bit harder on the new paints to make them look thinner than they really are in terms of application.

His arguments about a money grab... well, that's the GW usual critique anyway.

His critique of the texture paints is somewhat valid. After using them tonight it's clear that one could easily go through a whole pot over the course of basing an army. However, on the balance you could conceivably fully base a unit -texture, drybrush, grass in a single evening. So it does assist in the speed.

I've spent the weekend working with the new paints, and I have found my own experience to be the opposite. To be sure, the Layer paints are on the surface thinner than the previous citadel line. However, the Base Paints are a definite improvement in terms of colour over the Foundation Line, and I find that the coverage is certainly on par. The new Shades are slightly better than the previous washes, and while they flow into the crevasses better they will still tint the previous paint.

I have found that both base and layer airbrush very well... although if you're putting down a coat over black, always always use a base first, and then work with the layer that gives you the colour that you want. The translucency of the layers is to make blending via either layering or wet blending easier to work with, but they are designed to be applied over another colour. In essence the layers provide the highlighting stages of a given model.

One of the things that was overlooked by this review is the idea of GW moving to purpose-brewed paint. I have always been an advocate of using the best paint for the job. If GW paint is the best, then use it. If Tamiya is better for something else... use it. In the latter example, Tamiya paints are excellent for airbrushing, and are designed for it. However, I have yet to meet anyone who things brush painting with Tamiya paint even comes close to a good idea. Similarly, airbrushing with Vallejo model colour paints is just asking for trouble, unless you do it a very specific way... and even then they're not really designed for it. P3 are pretty good multi-purpose paints, but their metallics are very much a pain in the katukas.

In this case, the new paint line from GW is actually seven purpose-brewed lines rather than a single one. So with the new line, don't use a given paint for something it's not designed for... or if you do, don't expect it to perform like the others... and be prepared for it taking longer to get satisfactory results. I'm sure you can still drybrush with a base or layer, but obviously drybrushing with the shades or glazes isn't going to work as well. So the new paint line is not "useless" as he claims it to be.

I think the proof will be seeing how the paint line develops as people get used to it as a new tool in the arsenal. There's a lot in this paint line that will help speed up painting and improve the overall quality of the rank and file. I've seen others trying to stock up on the old paint before it goes out... I think that's a bit silly unless you're close to finishing off an army with a very specific paint scheme. My take is to let people try it for themselves... and to try painting things in a different way. We don't learn unless we stretch ourselves a bit winkingOrk.gif


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--Remember, long, uncontrolled bursts,
and indiscriminate target selection.
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MaddaMek
post Apr 11 2012, 04:45 AM
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To be honest I do agree with idea of "purposed" paints being good. I think Layers + Vallejo/P3/etc. have huge potential. Layers + base - not quite sure. Maybe if they'll expand base palette.

I also disagree about this stance about dry paints - I often use weird technique involving concrete pigments (basically liquid paints without resin) that I leave to dry a little to give "dusty" look, it's really good looking and softer than paint. It looks like they are similar... which make me happy actually (pigments need lacquer).

Not sure about his opinion about metallics (GW metallics are/were best acrylics), he gave up acrylic metals outside of drybrush so probably he dislike them due to sheer fact they aren't Vallejo Alcohols winkingOrk.gif
[I followed his advice with that one and I see WHY he use them for layers, for drybrush they are indeed "pain in the katukas" tho]


I think with absence of GOOD free painting tutorials (now we have 43 shopping list, maybe later they'll show something worthwhile) and pretty pricey book+DVD (not as expensive as Miniature Mentor, tho I must say MM are freaking awesome, especially sculpting videos) GW might lost war by winning battle (ie. short term profit in exchange of long term ones). I'm pretty sure that most people would say "frag dat" and stick to washes + Vallejo/P3.

Time will tell.


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Agatheron
post Apr 11 2012, 09:23 PM
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Once I finish up Dreadfleet, I'm going to be painting up the two armies in the Island of Blood box as a test-drive for the new "system." I will stick to as much of the new paints as I can, only using the older paints to fill in any gaps that I might have. I will use techniques as described in the new "how to paint" book, but obviously developing my own pattern for working on the models. Hopefully this might give people an idea on how the painting "system" is supposed to work.

With any degree of luck I will have Dreadfleet completed by the end of the weekend... so this may come fairly soon.


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______Agatheron \_______
--Remember, long, uncontrolled bursts,
and indiscriminate target selection.
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mr_maxime
post Apr 15 2012, 02:04 PM
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I didnt care much for the purposed paints since I dont see myself using anything outside of the layer category. I never drybrush anymore and never found myself needing foundation paint. The textured paints though are a godsend for me. They're a little tricky to apply, but it beats the living hell out of gluing sand and painting it. Before I had to glue sand, then paint watered down glue to really set it, then paint it trying to fill all of the crannies, and drybrush it. and now boom! the first 3 steps are now 1 single step!

My only complaint, cost aside, is that they didnt fix the damn lid.


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Agatheron
post Apr 15 2012, 06:00 PM
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Well... the lids are a partial fix. All the shades come with the new lids, and oddly enough Abaddon Black did as well. These stay open nicely... so maybe they're just using up their old stock of lids, and we'll see the newer ones on the remainder of the paints at some point soon.

Having started to use these paints, I think the Bases are far far more useful now than even the foundations were. Partly because they cover very well, but their colours aren't the dull finish that the Foundations were known for. I'm doing a thread in the Garage about painting up some Burna Boyz using the new line of paints as much as possible to at least try out the method that GW developed with this paint line.


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and indiscriminate target selection.
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MaddaMek
post Apr 15 2012, 09:30 PM
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I've managed to borrow new DVD (no book tho), It looks... well, I'm not sure. Basically what I've been done for years except now I wouldn't need to water down paints. Maybe formulas are better, but I had no chance to paint with them.

I have question about new washes - do they smell with rotten onions? It was big problem for me (lacquering didn't helped!)


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Agatheron
post Apr 15 2012, 11:35 PM
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The new washes don't have any odour to them at all... and I've not generally noticed an odour to any of the paint styles. I did note that Ironbreaker (Metallic Layer) did not mesh well with my brushlicking habit smilingOrk.gif but I am not sure about the other layers. I'll have a better idea this week when I get started on the Burna Boyz.


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Agatheron
post Apr 15 2012, 11:49 PM
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Here's an example of the Mephiston Red airbrushed over black:


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mr_maxime
post Apr 16 2012, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE (Agatheron @ Apr 16 2012, 12:35 AM) *
The new washes don't have any odour to them at all... and I've not generally noticed an odour to any of the paint styles.


Damn. I loved the smell of the washes.


--------------------
here's why my orks are blue. they have an intense hatred of historical recording of any kind which results in none of them knowing why they're blue. because of this, anytime anyone questions the origin of their skintone they waste no time adding the inquirer's head to their bosspole. no one will ever know why these orks are blue, as merely asking about it is a death wish. in the end there will be only 3 types of people left, the blue orks, those who don't want to know the history of the blue skin, and the dead.
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MaddaMek
post Apr 16 2012, 01:58 AM
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I have nothing against onions. Fresh onions. (Onions and food with onions is awesome)

Aga, as fas as I see (I also use airbrush) then this red cover nicely. How many layers it took?


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Can You shoot back at triple Heldrake, quad Scythe list?


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Agatheron
post Apr 16 2012, 08:34 AM
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I did 2 in the same sitting. Sprayed everything once, went back and sprayed everything again just to make sure everything was even. After I took this picture I washed it with Carroburg Crimson shade and let it dry overnight. I will take another pic this morning. I will say this was far less of a painful process as was doing the purple sails of the Vampire ship using Liche and Warlock purple.


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Agatheron
post Apr 16 2012, 02:25 PM
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Quick update with new pictures. After spraying the above, I then washed it with the Carroburg Crimson Shade last night using the Wash Brush. Here's how it looked after that:



As you can see it darkened things down a bit, but it did bring out the shaded areas very nicely.

After it had dried, I then airbrushed Evil Suns Scarlet, which is a "Layer" paint. Its more translucent, and I don't recommend spraying any of the Layer paints over black as they're not intended for that. What really impressed me was how it brightened up the paint, while still keeping the shadows created by the previous wash layer.

This isn't the best picture, as the balances are somewhat borked on the ship's hull:


The next step was to do the last airbrush highlight using Wild Rider Red. Don't let the colour name fool you, it is clearly into the orange range, but named as such as it works well as a highlight colour on red.



The darker looking sail on the right is simply shadow from how I angled the light.

From here on in, it will all be brush painted, including edge highlighting on parts of the hull and sails. I'll post those when I can. I will be using the Wild Rider Red for that step.


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MaddaMek
post Apr 16 2012, 03:48 PM
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You really need to take those pictures on white/gray background with diffused light.


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Can You shoot back at triple Heldrake, quad Scythe list?


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