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> Da Krawla, Need some feedback
Dribble Joy
post Mar 10 2012, 08:06 AM
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Phobiak
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Some of you who have been to the Waaagh! UK meet have come across my Krawla. I've been using it for several years now and no-one has really questioned it, partly because it's a big shiny thing and Apoc. tends to be quite forgiving.

Regardless, I want to get some feedback on it's pricing. I'm unsure if it's under priced, compared to say, a stompa, which although it has fewer guns, one of them is distinctly better, plus being a walker has numerous benefits. Its it worth the same as three Kill Tanks?
It could be over priced, compared to say, a warhound titan.

I'm also thinking about a kustom version at some point, so option pricing needs to be looked at. Much of the IA stuff has Grot Gunners for around 25-50 points, where-as the Targeta is 100 for the Krawla. Obviously it has more guns and the main kannons have the no blast D shots making it a more expensive choice.

Also check out the skullhamma variant of mine; the plazhamma.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  plaz.pdf ( 298.98K ) Number of downloads: 119
Attached File  krawla.pdf ( 296.23K ) Number of downloads: 148
 


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pete1000
post Mar 10 2012, 12:43 PM
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Hi DJ,

I have tried to price the Plaz Hamma by comparison the Kustom Battle Fortress in IA8.

I added for ard case and 2 x twin linked big shootas. I deducted the Deff Rolla and 2 x Zap Guns. I thought that the boom gun was fairly similar to the KBF Kannon. I added 50 points for the PH being a Fast vehicle by comparing an ordinary IA8 Skullhamma and a IA8 Deff Rolla BF.

Then I got to the Plazma Blast Gun which is better than the Skullhamma Kannon in strength AP and range. It is similar to a deth kannon in some respects and that is 100 in IA8 for a Kustom stompa.

In the end I got to 510 points so at 600 I think you are a bit over.
thumbs.gif Pete
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Dribble Joy
post Mar 10 2012, 01:12 PM
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Phobiak
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I went from the Skullhamma (fast, capacity of 30):

Kannon -> Boomgun - 50 points
13/13/11 -> 14/13/11 - 50-75 points
Skullhamma kannon -> Plasma Blast Gun - 50-75

Giving you 550-600. We also need to think about things like the Shadowsword and Stormblade(?).

Thinking of drawing up a kustom krawla sheet at some point, but wondering about what I have at the moment first.


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Dribble Joy
post Mar 10 2012, 02:36 PM
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Eh, lets have a rough draft.

Points: 400 + Options.

Type: Super Heavy Vehicle.

Structure Points: 4.

BS: 2.

Armour: 14/13/12.

Options:

3 Main turret weapons:
You may choose any of the following, but all must be of the same type. All must fire at the same target but are otherwise treated as separate weapons. Main turret weapons have the Primary rule.

Super-kannon - 65 points each.
Supa-lobba - 45 points each.
Flamebelcha - 40 points each.
Gaze of Mork - 50 points each.
Gigashoota - 75 points each.
Krusha-kannon - 75 points each.
Mega-kannon* - 75 points each.
Skullhamma-kannon - 100 points each.
Deth-kannon - 100 points each.
Giga-kannon** - 100 points each.
Bursta gun - 100 points each.
Deff Arsenal - 150 points each.

2 Deck weapons:
You must select two Deck weapons from below.

Big lobba - 25 points each.
Big Zzappa - 30 points each.
Flakka-gunz - 35 points each.
Killkannon - 35 points each.
Super-kannon - 65 points each.
Supa-lobba - 45 points each.
Flamebelcha - 40 points each.
Gaze of Mork - 50 points each.
Gigashoota - 75 points each.
Super-gatler - 75 points each.
Krusha-kannon - 75 points each.
Mega-kannon* - 75 points each.

Sponson weapons:
You may have up to six sponson weapons (maximum of three per side).

Skorcha - 5 points each.
Big Shoota - 5 points each.
Rokkit Launcha - 10 points each.
Twin-linked Big Shoota - 10 points each.
Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha - 20 points each.
Kannon - 10 points each.
Zzap gun - 15 points each.
Supa skorcha - 20 points each.
Deffgun - 20 points each.
Big Zzappa - 30 points each.
Flakka-gunz - 35 points each.
Gaze of Mork - 50 points each.

Additional Weapons:
Up to 2 Grot Bomb Launchas - 10 points each.
Up to 3 Supa-rokkits - 20 points each.
Up to 4 Grot Sponsons - 10 points each.

Up to four pintle-mounted weapons:
Skorcha - 5 points each.
Big Shoota - 5 points each.
Rokkit Launcha - 10 points each.
Twin-linked Big Shoota - 10 points each.
Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha - 20 points each.

Additional Options:

Red Paint Job - 25 points.
Upgrade Deck weapons to Primary - 50 points.
Targeta/Grot Gunners - 50 points.
Up to two Powerfields - 50 points each.
Repair Krew - 75 points.
Kustom Force Field Generator - 100 points.

* Mega-kannon:
60" S8 AP3 Ord 1 7" Blast.
** Giga-kannon:
High Explosive: 72" S9 AP3 Ord 1 7" Blast.
Armour Piercing: 72" D AP2 Heavy 1

My version comes to 970 points winkingOrk.gif.


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Killbless
post Mar 10 2012, 09:41 PM
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I think the krawla rules are great but I think it should have more structure points. Maybe 5 instead of 4. Also I don't think Flakka guns would be very good at shooting down aircraft on a sponson mount. Just my thoughts though.


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"Natural progression I guess; Wartrakktor, Wartrukk, Battlewagon..." - Thoume on the evolution of Ork vehicles

'It is considered a great breach of protocol to open fire upon a challenger in a race such as this, though truth be told Orks have never cared that much about protocol' - Ork Codex

"In the end the towing stompa literally bristles with weaponry from across the galaxy. Sometimes the gunz are even pointing in the right direction!" - Imperial Armour 8 on Deff Arsenals
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Barkdreg Badtoof
post Mar 10 2012, 10:04 PM
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I don't know. Da Krawla just seems a bit too much, even for Orks, but that's probably me talking. I'm not referring to the rules--if anything, it's underpowered and overpriced, but rather having all those turrets and the like. Of course, this can all change depending on size. I didn't see any sort of scale there, and Da Krawla looked like it was around Baneblade size but with more dakka than a pair of Stompas. Also, where are the Gazes coming from?

The plazhamma, likewise, seems to be too expensive, but it's one of those concepts that I don't get. I can't see Orks using plasma weaponry without something truly horrible happening, pretty much right away. Putting a plasma blastgun on an Ork vehicle would likely result in two smoldering piles of metallic goop--one from whatever it was shooting at and the other from the overheated remnants of the vehicle itself. winkingOrk.gif
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Dim_Reapa
post Mar 10 2012, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (Barkdreg Badtoof @ Mar 11 2012, 03:04 AM) *
I can't see Orks using plasma weaponry without something truly horrible happening, pretty much right away. Putting a plasma blastgun on an Ork vehicle would likely result in two smoldering piles of metallic goop--one from whatever it was shooting at and the other from the overheated remnants of the vehicle itself. winkingOrk.gif


Well that's what happens when you take an aspect of what Orks are and apply it as a totality. Orks have a somewhat silly, random side to them, but the rules tend to emphasise it more than the fluff does (particularly because the writer of our codex is conservative to a fault). Besides, these are Bad Moons, and they differ from the cliche depiction of Orks. If Orks could only use fancy technology in a manner as you suggest (which essentially seems to be the typical "hilariously shooting themselves in the foot" depiction, which is mostly exaggerated by the 40k fan-base) then all those Bad Moon tellyportas that Ghaz used in Armageddon would not have worked with considerable success, but would have tellyported all the Orks and Ghaz into the middle of a Star Trek convention. They didn't.

Perhaps there should be some orky possibility of the Plasma weaponry exploding, but it shouldn't be equally as likely as it working. Just because Kelly's rules suck doesn't mean fan-rules should be mired by the same ineffectualness. Orks in the fluff have vast cultural differences and uniqueness in excess of any other Faction in all of 40k, yet all we see seemingly on this forum, day in and day out is the same stereotypes and cliches. DJ is probably somewhat used to it, what with some git on the forum once telling him his Warboss looked like a beakie. Bad Moons are supposed to be one of those factions on one extreme of Orkdom. That extreme is sometimes undermined by Ork oafishness, but oafishness is not a constant for any Ork in 40k.


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Dribble Joy
post Mar 11 2012, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE (Barkdreg Badtoof @ Mar 11 2012, 03:04 AM) *
I didn't see any sort of scale there, and Da Krawla looked like it was around Baneblade size but with more dakka than a pair of Stompas

It's considerably bigger than a baneblade, longer, wider and taller. It's volume is probably more than that of a stompa too.
Barry pic.
You can also compare it to the plazhamma here.

QUOTE
Also, where are the Gazes coming from?

A bit of a stretch I'll admit, they are the looted lascannon sponsons.

QUOTE
The plazhamma, likewise, seems to be too expensive, but it's one of those concepts that I don't get. I can't see Orks using plasma weaponry without something truly horrible happening, pretty much right away. Putting a plasma blastgun on an Ork vehicle would likely result in two smoldering piles of metallic goop--one from whatever it was shooting at and the other from the overheated remnants of the vehicle itself. winkingOrk.gif

Like Dim said, Ork technological aptitude is frequently shown to be below that of which they are capable, and not simply Bad Moons. Gaze of Morks, mega blastas, KFFs, SAGs; Orks actually have a grasp of such things in excess of many other races (it's been mentioned numerous times that their field, tractor and teleport understanding may even surpass that of the Panzees).
The Bad Moons have no more understanding as such, just that they are more likely to use/have access to said technology.


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Barkdreg Badtoof
post Mar 11 2012, 12:39 PM
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QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 10 2012, 11:07 PM) *
Well that's what happens when you take an aspect of what Orks are and apply it as a totality. Orks have a somewhat silly, random side to them, but the rules tend to emphasise it more than the fluff does (particularly because the writer of our codex is conservative to a fault).


I actually have to disagree, a little, with this. I'd say that the current Codex is actually quite good, particularly compared to the horror that was the 3rd Edition book. But I digress. winkingOrk.gif


QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 10 2012, 11:07 PM) *
Besides, these are Bad Moons, and they differ from the cliche depiction of Orks. If Orks could only use fancy technology in a manner as you suggest (which essentially seems to be the typical "hilariously shooting themselves in the foot" depiction, which is mostly exaggerated by the 40k fan-base) then all those Bad Moon tellyportas that Ghaz used in Armageddon would not have worked with considerable success, but would have tellyported all the Orks and Ghaz into the middle of a Star Trek convention. They didn't.


Bad Moonz are the wealthier "merchant" classes of the Orks, strangely more likely to produce Weirdboyz (which even they don't seem to understand) and prone to showing off their gear by having the best armor (and were the only Nobz in 2nd to be allowed Mega-Armor) and bigger, more showy guns than normal, yes? They aren't some sort of mechanical masterminds that manage to use a weapon which is considered ridiculously dangerous by its own creators without any ill effects? Pretty sure that wasn't one of their traits, historically. winkingOrk.gif

I'm not saying an Ork would push the fire button once and the whole thing would blow up. I'm saying, give an Ork a weapon that is likely to continue firing said weapon until it overheats catastrophically, much like the gatling blasta on the Stompa, etc. But just in general, I think plasma is a bit too unstable for the standard Ork MO.

QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 10 2012, 11:07 PM) *
Perhaps there should be some orky possibility of the Plasma weaponry exploding, but it shouldn't be equally as likely as it working. Just because Kelly's rules suck doesn't mean fan-rules should be mired by the same ineffectualness.


Your bias is showing. winkingOrk.gif

QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 10 2012, 11:07 PM) *
Orks in the fluff have vast cultural differences and uniqueness in excess of any other Faction in all of 40k, yet all we see seemingly on this forum, day in and day out is the same stereotypes and cliches. DJ is probably somewhat used to it, what with some git on the forum once telling him his Warboss looked like a beakie. Bad Moons are supposed to be one of those factions on one extreme of Orkdom. That extreme is sometimes undermined by Ork oafishness, but oafishness is not a constant for any Ork in 40k.


Again, I strongly disagree, but we're getting very off-topic here. We have gone from the days of a typical warband consisting of a Goff Warboss, some Bad Moon Nobz, Deathskull and Evil Sunz Boyz, etc., to having purely homogenized lists and fandexes for such. That's a bit of a stretch, even with the old WD lists (which were in and of themselves horrible, but that's another story).

Edit: Oh, DJ, sorry. Seeing the scale pics makes it a LOT better in my mind, as far as Da Krawla goes, although I'm still not digging on the Gazes.
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Dim_Reapa
post Mar 11 2012, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (Barkdreg Badtoof @ Mar 11 2012, 05:39 PM) *
I actually have to disagree, a little, with this. I'd say that the current Codex is actually quite good, particularly compared to the horror that was the 3rd Edition book. But I digress. winkingOrk.gif


The 3rd Ed Codex had a good synergy going with rules and fluff. It wasn't perfect, but it demonstrated a basic understanding and point behind the actual fluff of Orks. Much of our current codex is 40k skaven (Well, tries to be. It fails due to ineffectual "advantages" and unintuitive pricing), which is, as I said, merely a minor aspect of Orkdom. The amount of times the current Codex shoots the Orks in their feet for barely even a form of an advantage is crap from every standpoint, aside of mild hilarity which will wear thin quicker than an apple in a bottle of hydrochloric acid.

Incidentally, conservative to a fault sums up the likes of rules such as Glory Hogs and Don't Press Dat to an absolute tee. The current codex is "quite good" but there is significant room for improvement. To me, the 3rd Ed Codex was better from a rules perspective. Whilst the fluff is better now, the fluff in the 3rd Ed codex was better incorporated into the system.

QUOTE (Barkdreg Badtoof @ Mar 11 2012, 05:39 PM) *
Bad Moonz are the wealthier "merchant" classes of the Orks, strangely more likely to produce Weirdboyz (which even they don't seem to understand) and prone to showing off their gear by having the best armor (and were the only Nobz in 2nd to be allowed Mega-Armor) and bigger, more showy guns than normal, yes? They aren't some sort of mechanical masterminds that manage to use a weapon which is considered ridiculously dangerous by its own creators without any ill effects? Pretty sure that wasn't one of their traits, historically. winkingOrk.gif


There you're merely enhancing the stereotype, and enforcing my point. Bad Moons are going to be more inclined to get their meks working on technology of a more advanced nature, because the results are more showy. Speaking of Historically, you are ignoring the example I provided (Nazdreg's Tellyportas), whereas you just seem to be taking the basic fluff as a totality, which is precisely my argument.

QUOTE (Barkdreg Badtoof @ Mar 11 2012, 05:39 PM) *
I'm not saying an Ork would push the fire button once and the whole thing would blow up. I'm saying, give an Ork a weapon that is likely to continue firing said weapon until it overheats catastrophically, much like the gatling blasta on the Stompa, etc. But just in general, I think plasma is a bit too unstable for the standard Ork MO.


I fail to see why this idea presents itself as more likely in Orks than any other faction in 40k. If plasma weapons are so unpredictable anyway, they'd actually be more disastrous to the Imperials, who don't have psychic resonance enforced by cavalier confidence to back them up. Malfunctioning could be a bigger part of all apoc super weapons. I don't see why the buck has to start and stop with Orks merely because people habitually underrate their intelligence.

But ultimately, this isn't about the standard Ork MO. Because there isn't a standard Ork MO.

QUOTE (Barkdreg Badtoof @ Mar 11 2012, 05:39 PM) *
Your bias is showing. winkingOrk.gif


Yours presented itself far sooner. Kelly is mediocre, but he's way better than Ward. Kelly's fluff is good, mostly, but his rules are overly conservative. There's nothing to bias with rules such as Don't Press Dat and Glory Hogs, whose continued presence within the codex is absolutely and demonstrably dumb. Whether you find it appeals to your tastes, it doesn't represent the canonical representation of Orks, and takes a well implemented rule in the 3rd Ed Codex you so despise and makes it into a pointless stick with no carrot, there for the "lulz" and doesn't even impact pricing.

To the contrary, the worst part is that Kelly's conservatism extends mostly to pricing, many weapons which are priced according to the most favourable outcome. The worst is the Zzap Gun, which in the previous Codex cost the same as the other Big Gunz, because all three guns have a damage potential which is roughly the same.

QUOTE (Barkdreg Badtoof @ Mar 11 2012, 05:39 PM) *
Again, I strongly disagree, but we're getting very off-topic here. We have gone from the days of a typical warband consisting of a Goff Warboss, some Bad Moon Nobz, Deathskull and Evil Sunz Boyz, etc., to having purely homogenized lists and fandexes for such. That's a bit of a stretch, even with the old WD lists (which were in and of themselves horrible, but that's another story).


The idea of mono-clan forces is as old as Rogue Trader. It's right there, in black and white, in Waaargh! The Orks, and pretty much every other Dex if you look closely. You're taking a minuscule, sectionalised, stereotypical view of Orks gleaned from parts of the sources, and enforcing it as a representation of what Orks always are. It's the classic fan-fluff trap. You also seem to be basing it on rules representations from varying editions where the emphasis and taste of the writers (not to mention the game) has shifted. There is no reason why fan-writers need to be bound by those trivialities at all times.

It's a massive narrative universe out there, with absolutely infinite scope. The idea of Orks destroying themselves with every non-standard endeavour is barely present at all in the fluff, yet it is the expectation of most 40k fans. I enjoy that aspect of Orks as much as anyone else, but it's hard to argue exactly how fluffy it is. It varies to the writer, and generally the quality and attention to existing canon is the two things that most GW writers actually lack with regards to their own work.

It's worth noting that you have stated yourself to be strongly disagreeing with the suggestion that Orks are vast and diverse, many fanboys enforce a stereotype which is inaccurate and that Ork oafishness isn't a constant. You strongly disagree with this. Considering the canon backs all of this up, you're enforcing my point absolutely.


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Dribble Joy
post Mar 11 2012, 01:59 PM
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Guys!

Can we focus?

Any actual suggestions on pricing and which options should be removed, altered and added?


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Barkdreg Badtoof
post Mar 11 2012, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 11 2012, 01:25 PM) *
The 3rd Ed Codex had a good synergy going with rules and fluff. It wasn't perfect, but it demonstrated a basic understanding and point behind the actual fluff of Orks. Much of our current codex is 40k skaven, which is, as I said, merely a minor aspect of Orkdom. The amount of times the current Codex shoots the Orks in their feet for barely even a form of an advantage is crap from every standpoint, aside of mild hilarity which will wear thin quicker than an apple in a bottle of hydrochloric acid.


The 3rd Ed. Codex had the problems of choppas (which was a rather nonsensical rule), Trukk Boyz as Fast Attack, and basically being no more than green Tyranids with looted Imperial Technology.

QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 11 2012, 01:25 PM) *
Incidentally, conservative to a fault sums up the likes of rules such as Glory Hogs and Don't Press Dat to an absolute tee. The current codex is "quite good" but there is significant room for improvement.


Frankly, both of those rules suck, but 10 Rokkits is still preferable to 4 and Looted vehicles have always been one of those things I'd really rather not see too much of, so I don't mind the bad rules for either unit. Zap Guns did get made worse, as you stated, but in the 3rd Edition book there were just a little bit too good. On a battlewagon, anyways.

QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 11 2012, 01:25 PM) *
There you're merely enhancing the stereotype, and enforcing my point. Bad Moons are going to be more inclined to get their meks working on technology of a more advanced nature, because the results are more showy. Speaking of Historically, you are ignoring the example I provided (Nazdreg's Tellyportas), whereas you just seem to be taking the basic fluff as a totality, which is precisely my argument.


One can argue that a Bad Moon would be "more likely" to do just about anything. That doesn't make it canon at all. I didn't argue the point about Nazdreg because it's absolutely correct and accurate--his Mekz (which, for the record, were never noted as Bad Moons, I believe?) developed them and suchlike. And while we can expand in any direction, that doesn't make it canon.

QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 11 2012, 01:25 PM) *
I fail to see why this idea presents itself as more likely in Orks than any other faction in 40k. If plasma weapons are so unpredictable anyway, they'd actually be more disastrous to the Imperials, who don't have psychic resonance enforced by cavalier confidence to back them up. Malfunctioning could be a bigger part of all apoc super weapons. I don't see why the buck has to start and stop with Orks merely because people habitually underrate their intelligence.


I may be way off-base here, but you're seeming to overemphasize the psychic abilities of the Orks. Or perhaps I'm underemphasizing it. I admit, I don't buy into a vehicle moving faster simply because of a red paint job, but rather the explanation given by the AdMech: faster vehicles are unconsciously painted red.

QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 11 2012, 01:25 PM) *
The idea of mono-clan forces is as old as Rogue Trader. It's right there, in black and white, in Waaargh! The Orks, and pretty much every other Dex if you look closely. You're taking a minuscule, sectionalised, stereotypical view of Orks gleaned from parts of the sources, and enforcing it as a representation of what Orks always are. It's the classic fan-fluff trap. You also seem to be basing it on rules representations from varying editions where the emphasis and taste of the writers (not to mention the game) has shifted. There is no reason why fan-writers need to be bound by those trivialities at all times.


Absolutely. You could take a mono-Clan force in RT, but there was no incentive to do so and, unless my memory is way off (I only still have Freebooters around) you were allowed to take, say, Evil Suns in a Bad Moons list. 2nd made the "Skittles" approach, 3rd did away with Clans altogether until the WD, which produced stereotype-based lists, and then 4th made Klans effectively a color scheme. Which makes sense. Bad Moons are going to have Warbikers. Evil Sunz are going to have Shoota Boyz. And so on.

QUOTE (Dim_Reapa @ Mar 11 2012, 01:25 PM) *
It's worth noting that you have stated yourself to be strongly disagreeing with the suggestion that Orks are vast and diverse, many fanboys enforce a stereotype which is inaccurate and that Ork oafishness isn't a constant. You strongly disagree with this. Considering the canon backs all of this up, you're enforcing my point absolutely.


Absolutely. I am saying that Ork "Kultur" is nowhere near as diverse as some people wish to make it and that, ultimately, there is little difference between a Goff and, say, a Snakebite, or that rather, the differences between the Clans are far less marked than those between, say, a Delaque Hive Ganger and an agri-world worker.

I'll also say that just about every fan reinforces stereotypes that are inaccurate, whether it be that Orks run on "clap your hands if you believe" or that Orks are little green humans that can do anything a humie could do.
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Dim_Reapa
post Mar 11 2012, 02:12 PM
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I'll run my reply in PM so DJ can get back to pricing. I'm happy to continue the debate with you if you want, over PMs Barkdreg.


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pete1000
post Mar 14 2012, 03:51 PM
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Hi DJ, slightly off topic but how did you do the data sheets for the krawla and plazhamma? I have found the blank sheets on the GW website but these are in pdf format, how do you get them so you can insert/edit the text?
cheers.gif Pete
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Dribble Joy
post Mar 16 2012, 02:25 PM
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I think I used Photoshop (or the open source Gimp). Or I saved it as a .jpg or something, opened it in OpenOffice Draw and then saved as a .pdf.


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Oldfart
post Mar 19 2012, 08:29 AM
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Where is the Deff rolla of unusal size option. You know they would put a deff rolla on it.

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Dribble Joy
post Mar 22 2012, 06:49 PM
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New version.

Added Deff Rolla, removed a few options (like the Flakkagunz), added a few more (like my moment of insanity with the Mega-Krawla upgrade).
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Attached File  Krawlakreata.pdf ( 21.03K ) Number of downloads: 44
 


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