Moving on from reserve through cover?, Rules question Options

[Redtoof]

I have a rules question that has come up from fielding Ghaz with Snikrot to ambush people and hurt them lots.

The problem is that when he arrives, being in mega armour, he is always in difficult terrain. What happens if I roll less than the 3 inches needed to get his base onto the table? From reading the rulebook it looks as if the unit is destroyed, but this seems excessively harsh on units with slow and purposeful (especially during dawn of war deployment games). There is a rule that suggests you ignore anything that would stop you moving, but difficult terrain doesn't actually stop you, merely slowing you down.

Anyone got a solution?

[big mek tank kru...]

well he and the kommandos have 'move through cover', so there's a bit of a repreve. otherwise i'd just put him touching the edge, and if someone wants to get really finnicky about it, move him the number he needed to get there less next turn.

personally i'm against ambushing mega-armour (he snuck up on them. riiight...) but oh well. if he's an inch short, it might be he gets bored and wonders off

[Nork]

It's the same with vehicles, if they come in through difficult terrain and roll a 1, they're dead. Also most vehicles cannot enter from reserve at combat speed (they can't get their full length on the board in 6"). I suppose you could argue that you moved and then pivoted...

Also, his base is less than 2" so if you can get anything other than three 1's on 3D6 then you're safe. Technically the models are waiting right on the edge of the board and you can move the leading edge of the base the move distance from the board edge.

Another thing to remember is that all independent characters have both move through cover and skilled rider. Meaning that even if you aren't running Ghaz with Snik and you just walk him on from reserve with a unit that doesn't have move through cover, you still roll 3D6 unless you are actually moving through cover in which case the unit and Ghaz drops to 2D6. Ghaz's mega armour doesn't slow everyone, just him, and they all move as fast as he does. Of course that's not the case for MAN units, they always move 2D6.

[Muctar]

Another thing to remember is that all independent characters have both move through cover and skilled rider.

I don't think this is correct. Where in the rulebook does it say that all IC have Move Through Cover, or Skilled Rider?

[Grogsmek]

I don't think this is correct. Where in the rulebook does it say that all IC have Move Through Cover, or Skilled Rider?

Pg 47 of the BRB, in the paragraph called Independent Characters.

[Shabbadoo]

I have a rules question that has come up from fielding Ghaz with Snikrot to ambush people and hurt them lots.

The problem is that when he arrives, being in mega armour, he is always in difficult terrain. What happens if I roll less than the 3 inches needed to get his base onto the table? From reading the rulebook it looks as if the unit is destroyed, but this seems excessively harsh on units with slow and purposeful (especially during dawn of war deployment games). There is a rule that suggests you ignore anything that would stop you moving, but difficult terrain doesn't actually stop you, merely slowing you down.

Anyone got a solution?

From the BRB FAQ:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)

A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

So Ghazghkull would die if you rolled 2 or less on your Move Through Cover roll, as his standard 60mm base is bigger than 2". Sucks, but it is true. There is only about a 3.7% chance of it happening, but it could happen. We would probably "house rule" it so that such a unit is placed so as to barely be in play, meaning right up against the table edge, unless the movement was prevented by the proximity of an enemy model (i.e. you cannot move a model within 1" of an enemy model unless your model is Assaulting it), in which case Ghazghkull is very much screwed regardless of how high you roll. I wouldn't expect a tournament atmosphere to be so forgiving though, but that will vary from tournament to tournament.

And remember, as Ghazghkull is a part of the unit, if he can't move fully into play then the whole unit has not moved fully into play, meaning they ALL count as destroyed, not just Ghazghkull.

[Nork]

Umm, according to the GW site Ghaz has a 40mm base.

Otherwise, yeah if he cannot get on, they all die.

[Rubbork Dakk]

It's just the risk of penalty you take if you play such an extreme anti-fluff thing.
Also, don't forget that Ghaz MUST stay in Snikkrots unit in the turn they arrive.

[big mek tank kru...]

It's just the risk of penalty you take if you play such an extreme anti-fluff thing.

got to say i agree with this. i'd have no sympathy if someone had this bad luck - i'd say that my guys heard the clanking behemoth trying to sneak up through my supporting army and they shot him.

[Redtoof]

I agree that in the fluff it is a little bit off, but it's for a tournament, so I won't feel too guilty about it when I'm facing a bizzilion chimeras or razorbacks in 1500 points.

It looks like the initial assessment of their being a small chance that the entire unit will trip over the board edge and kill themselves was correct. I feel this is fair enough for this unit, with move through cover etc. It does seem harsh on non-move through cover reserves, hopefully something that will change in the new edition.

[Nork]

Redtoof, don't forget that it's only the IC that has to move through difficult terrain (unless you are actually walking on from reserve into difficult terrain), meaning that Ghaz walking on with a squad of boys still use move through cover. I know that boys mobs don't have the move through cover rule, but they're also not moving through cover either. You can always move as fast as the slowest unit can go.

[nkelsch]

Yeah, Trip 1s = dead unit. 1:216 chance

If you modeled your Ghaz stand-in on a 60mm then Trip 1 or 2s = dead unit. 1:27 chance

And always remember, ICs cannot leave a unit the turn they come in from reserves.

It it is the risk you take.

[Dribble Joy]

Redtoof, don't forget that it's only the IC that has to move through difficult terrain (unless you are actually walking on from reserve into difficult terrain), meaning that Ghaz walking on with a squad of boys still use move through cover. I know that boys mobs don't have the move through cover rule, but they're also not moving through cover either. You can always move as fast as the slowest unit can go.

However (and I could be wrong about this), if one model in the unit is affected by difficult terrain, then the whole unit is. Since the boys don't have move through cover, an MAed IC would move at their speed.

An oddity arises though, do you simply roll 2D6, or do you roll 2D6 for the boyz and 3D6 for the IC and choose the lowest (since you move at the speed of the slowest model)?

[Nork]

Interesting point Dribble Joy, now i'm wondering.

I knew i'd seen something on this in the rules or faq so i went for a hunt...

In the Rulebook FAQ v1.5 p7 there's this...

Q: If a unit that contains one or more models with the
Slow and Purposeful special rule assaults does the
whole unit count as assaulting through difficult terrain
and hence strike at initiative 1 unless they have assault
grenades? (p76)
A: No. Only models with the Slow and Purposeful
special rule will count as moving through difficult
terrain for this purpose. Whilst the rest of the squad
are reduced to moving at the same speed this does not
also make the ground difficult for them.

...which doesn't address squad movement speed directly. But's it's probably where I got the idea in my head.

The Slow and Purposeful entry states that a S&P IC will cause a unit he joins to move at his speed, and vice versa. And of course S&P always count as moving through difficult terrain.

The question is, does the IC counting as being in difficult terrain mean that the rest of the unit counts as too?

Now part of me wants to point to the S&P initiative FAQ and make a comparison, but then I remember that in this game with the rules we have that isn't always a good idea

Anyone have anything that could help here? Also, sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread.

[Dribble Joy]

The question is, does the IC counting as being in difficult terrain mean that the rest of the unit counts as too?

I think the answer in general is; 'It's not clear.'

However...

The Slow and Purposeful entry states that a S&P IC will cause a unit he joins to move at his speed, and vice versa. And of course S&P always count as moving through difficult terrain.

This is the case of a rule specifically outlining how various rules interact in a given situation. Thus it gives precedent over how they would interact normally.
Therefore I am inclined then to say that a S&P IC joining a regular infantry unit in open terrain rolls 3D6.

Of course if any other member of the unit were in difficult terrain, they would roll 2D6.

[nkelsch]

The FAQ clarifies only the model with S&P is impacted for assaulting. Difficult terrain tests are not taken per model, they are taken per unit. I would say the entire unit would need move through cover for it to work where they are not slowed. Since the UNIT has to test, not every model in the unit has move through cover so I don't see the IC getting to take advantage of it outside a Kommandos unit.

But it is not clear by the FAQ as the FAQ was only addressing the Initiative and grenade aspect of units with S&P.

[Shabbadoo]

Oops! I put the wrong measurement, so, yes, the triple 1's get you(unless you just gotta have that larger base size/added risk). nkelsh is right about the Assaulting bit.

Just for reference, the BRB does state that a unit is limited by its slowest moving model, meaning what Ghazgkhul rolls on his Difficult Terrain roll is how far ALL of the models in the unit move. Reference:

DIFFERENT MOVEMENT
DISTANCES IN A UNIT
All of the models in a unit move at the speed of the
slowest model.

--- BRB p. 11 (bottom left column)

So, no FAQ required on that one. I wish that would change, such that all of the models in a unit move at their own speeds, if any are different; the only requirement being that coherency must still be maintained between the models in the unit. Maybe we'll see that a few months from now, and maybe not.

[Rombo]

I guess I'm the only one that thinks ambushing with Gazzkhull is perfectly fluffy. He's the prophet of the waaagh, he's as brutal as Gork and as cunning as Mork (or was it the other way around? ) And ambushing is not flanking, he's not sneaking around in a megaarmour with pink slippers, he's hidden inside a pile of rubble waiting in ambush for the enemy to pass by. He's not aproaching unheard, he was there all the time.

[Warboss Gorhack]

Yep, you're pretty much the only one to think it's fluffy. Mega Armor is usually described as a wheezing, clanking, smoke-belching contrivance, with somewhere in the vicinity of two tons of steel. Nothing subtle or stealthy about it.

Even assuming Gaz could get behind enemy lines without the other poor sods noticing, it's a bit of a stretch to assume he could lie camouflaged without the smoke giving him away, not to mention the clanking and wheezing every time he wants to scratch his bum. Or even the occasional unprompted whir and creak if he's completely still.

On the other hand, if you like the idea and can justify it in your own mind, it's legal... you can certainly give it a go. Cossack would tell you to run the army your way and ignore anyone who whines. While I wouldn't go that far - the game is supposed to be fun for BOTH players, after all - your limit might be players crying cheeze and refusing to play when they see what this combination does to their sensitive backfield. On the other hand, if the local gaming scene is good with you using this combo you may be good to go.

My two teef,

Warboss Gorhack

[Redtoof]

Regarding the fluff - I like to think of it as a teleporta attack/coming up through the sewers/bursting through a wall or something. It's not that they are all literally sneaking up on the enemy, just that they've come up with a particularly cunning way of being at the right place at the right time. Also Creed can do it with a zoggin Leman Russ! No stinkin oomie is more cunnin than Ghaz!

As for the rolling 2D6 vs 3D6 thing. I can see it being read either way, personally I think the rules imply it is 2D6 for the squad, although that makes no sense at all. Luckily by pairing Ghaz with the komandos we get to ignore this debate as they have move through cover as well.