Shift in types of ork players around? Or, are we like Panzees now?, kind of linked to earlier thread regarding power playing.. Options

[Panzeesmasha]

Hey guys,

Reading this thread set me off thinking... especially totgeboren's comments that he believes the new dex is overpowered. I don't think it takes a genius to realise that the newest ork codex has made the army substantially more competitive than the previous incarnation. I'm not sure I would wholeheartedly agree with totgeboren that the army is now overpowered but there are more Ork players perhaps than ever before it seems. This could of course be becauseof the fact that they are even cooler now as they can actually win games... but anyways.. There are people I know who have been traditional powergamers with the usual suspects... Panzees, certain chaos configs etc but who are now attracted to Orks. I always used to love being one of the only people who played orks under 3rd/early 4th. It even occasionally gave me an edge at tournaments when i fought armies designed to take out the many MEQS you'd see. In the past, when I went to tournaments under 3rd/4th i'd be one of 2 maybe 3 ork players out of 200! Now, you see a lot. Of course, my record under 3rd wasn't great... probably 50/50 win/loss but an ork player never played solely for the win.. it was for the thrill of the fight/game!

Don't get me wrong, I love the new codex in spite of its many proofreading errors and inconsistencies, its just a lot of army builds i'm seeing out there (not on this forum... uze gitz iz proppa!) seem to be very...errrmmm... dull and 'tournament friendly'? (wanted to avoid the b and c words ) i'e' 6 identical units of shoota boyz, 9 kanz, 2 KFF, 45 lootaz (not neccesarily in the same list of course... wouldn't have the points!) I'm not challenging people at all who make these builds and i'm not suggesting that these so-called nemesis armies are undefeatable... far from it!!! Its just that these optimised - if somewhat unbalanced - lists are a helluva lot more common nowadays. I have to say, however, that I think thewaaagh is refreshing in that you see pretty interesting lists with a lot of variety compared to some webseers... I mean websites

What I think i'm trying to suggest is that I play orks because I love the theme, the way they look, the fluff, the humour etc. whereas I'm not so sure that some of the newer players are playing them for the same reason. Are they simply playing them because they are actually very effective now? Not that it matters I suppose... I just wanted to share my thoughts. I welcome other orks anyway!!

Sorry for rambling and typos etc

Panzeesmasha.

[Gutzmeg]

I wholeheartedly agree. I play orks (and have done for a few years now) because they are fun, fluffy and fun...

I have also seen things with orks that are as you said "tournament friendly"

It would seem that some yoofs need a teachin on how to be proppa

[GrogDaTyrant]

We're still coming down from new-army syndrome. But ultimately we'll never be like the Panzees, because we're just too proppa.

I personally do not see the Ork codex as being anything near what the Panzee codex is in terms of 'power-player' friendly. For starters, we don't have a special character that's a 'no-brainer' choice due to how inexpensive he is (seriously, Eldrad is 5 pts less than a maxed-out Farseer). Further Orks can't really be specialized against specific army types. We can dump out Lootas, field a bunch of Nobs, or grab some Skorcha buggies... But when you boil it down, we simply don't have the variety of weapon options available to specifically gear towards any one type of adversary to any degree that Imperial or Panzee armies can do (like say MEQ). Orks can only gear themselves to fight anything. Yeah we can load up on more rokkits, but Big Shootas should never be neglected even against MEQ.

[BigMek]

I have to agree that orks are now more popular and it's a big embarasing to admit it, but I really dislike that since I loved the fact that I was one of the few who wanted to collect orks (guess I need to feel special ) but now my club have four ork players, none of em are powerplayers though, we've got panzee players to fill out that void ^^

Also, as Grog said, we're still a new popular army and give it some time I think the amount of ork armies will slowely decrease as people go back to their regular armies.

On the note of players chosing orks to powerplay, well, guess theres always been a "divide" in 40k players, powerplayers who play to win and fluff players and I can't really come up with any arguement for or against the two, it's just how tings are and yes, in 3rd and 4th the orks proberbly attracted fluff players more (well, we do have the coolest fluff!).

Just my two teef.

[Itinerate Ork]

New beakie codex comes out pretty soon, I think, so that will probably shift the balance back a bit. At least amongst the people I play with, the Chaos Daemons list hardly even registered on the radar as something to be interested in. And frankly, there ought to be a lot of ork armies, fluff wise. It makes so little sense that so many people play the rare, elite beakies in the context of the background GW has laid out.

I used to have pretty good luck as a horde type army against armies tuned to kill MEQs, but I do think the new codex has more options for competitive lists. Dredd Bash, green tide, Boss and Nobz on bikes, speed freeks all seem to be pretty impressive combinations. I think that's the biggest difference in the new rules. I'd say the only real problem with running a hyper-competitive list is getting people to keep playing you if you stomp them too badly. I don't feel like other armies have no hope against an ork list; most armies can be min/max'ed to be pretty competitive.

[Grashnik]

orks overpowered? don't think so... it's just it got more dangerous for enemies, who have no army against horde kind of armies...
the enemies i have know me and always have enough to kill me so easily, i still do not really know how i could win a game against em!

[hakbash]

Panzies are weedy, just perfect for them rules lawyerin, cheese listed, power gamin gitz who aint proppa. Panzies aint never gonna be proppa like da Orkz, and they aint gonna fool me neither....I can spot a skumgrod posin as a greenskin a parsec off.

I've allwayz played Orkz, and a new codex is nuffin new to ole Hakbash. I still field the same army. The new dex has moved us ahead of the curve, so naturally we will attract some unsavory Panzie posers.

This wave of Panzies playin Orkz will calm down in another 6 months. Then all those proppa Ork models will appear on E-bay so we can fill out our greentides. The weedy skumgrodz will return to their Panzie armies.

We aint never gonna be like Panzies. It just aint gonna happen as long as I'm around.

WAAAGH! da Panzies aint proppa

[Kludgnok]

Well, I certainly miss the days gone past where I was the only Ork player at the local shop, and I'd certainly agree that the new 'Dex has made us a much more potent force. However, I'd suggest that no matter where you draw a line, there are jerks on either side of it. It's a bit like that saying 'A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet'... 'A Powergaming Tool is a powergaming tool regardless of the color of the models in his army'...

What we're seeing now is the inevitable 'new army' flux of powergamers excited by the concept of tooling up another untouchable list. When the new beakie codex drops we'll see the exact same thing.

So I guess what it all boils down to is:

Yes, there are more Ork players

Yes, some of em are jerks

The solution? Keep it classy. Some folks enjoy powergaming, I'm not one of em, but as I didn't purchase their models for em, I can't tell them how to play. I can however refuse to play a known tool... I personally feel that a pair of fluffy lists, makes for a great battle, win or lose, I enjoy the hobby more then the win.*

*DISCLAIMER - wez orks... wez always win... if'n we die, we die fightin' so dat don't count....

[Hyena]

With black reach coming out and the second wave of models this Dec/Jan I would suspect that they might contribute to more ork amries. Especially Black Reach.

[AyatollahofRocki...]

I was the only Ork player at my shop. Now there is another. He's a yoof who has reformed his fishy "greater good" ways. He now fights for whats "proppa". I'm helping him learn to use his Orks more effectively. Like not using a Big Mek with SAG under 1000 points and that the KFF is far superior to the SAG when combined with kans.

I may have what you would call a "tounament friendly" army. In my defense I was playing an ork horde long before it was the flavor of the month. I was playing horde when the Kult of Speed players were saying on this very forum that Horde Orks were too weak to be competitive. How "tourney friendly" of them.

They took my bassie away so I switched to Lootas. They made blast scatter too much for my taste so I dropped my lobbas and kannon and switched to rokkit toting kans. I used a Warboss and Big Mek with KFF now I use 2 Big Meks, one KFF, one SAG. I play a blend of dreadbash and shooty horde.

I'm in an escalation league at my store right now, this month is 750 pts. Currently I'm in 1st place with a 6-0-1 record out of 16 players. The other Ork player is in the middle of the pack. My fish'ead buddy is 2nd place, he stomped the other Ork player when he played him but he's used to playing against Orks. It's all about experience.

One way to tone down the codex would be to make Kans Elite. Kans or lootas, that would be a tough choice.

[chiaroscuros]

My footslogging army made up of mostly max. size shoota boyz squads and killa kans with big shootas on everything. And it was very competitive in 4th edition (almost nothing could touch it). And 5th edition has made it even better. Granted, I need to play a lot more games with the new rules to really make sure that it isn't just a learning curve issue....

Anyway, the new Ork codex is so powerful that I have a friendly list and a tourney list. Because if I don't give my friends at least a 250 point advantage, they would consistantly lose against me..... And we all know that a tie game is always more fun than a slaughter. Especially if it is happening over and over.

I am looking forward to the new beakie dex because I think it will counterbalance orks nicely. But that still leaves a lot of other armies in the dust waiting for a new dex....

I recommend playing nicely!

[Rombo]

One way to tone down the codex would be to make Kans Elite. Kans or lootas, that would be a tough choice.

Yeah, then my dreadbash would have 9 kans and 5 dredds!!! Instead of 6 kans and 3 dredds...

[Gornob Grimgul]

I think the codex is great the way it is. And to think I started a thread awhile ago, because while lists here are diverse, I saw the all too common snikrot lol... now it's actually something more major.

However, I think the best ork lists aren't the tourny friendly ones. Really once people start taking more HBs and Autocannons, kan lists and horde lists will be bumped down a nudge. I imagine a fish'ead army can wipe those both out pretty good with a base waepons being 30" str 5 (if i'm not mistaken) making them possibly deadly on kanz (enough shots gets you immobilized, dies from squadron rule). I think that these lists are supposed to exist, as a ploy, taht with things like the new crons, diverse chaos, nerf to nidzilla, and the like, that people will HAVE to take more balanced list, as their one trick ponies will start running into things that they are horrible against, and all these ponies will either become more balanced, or less important. Really, having a ton of ponies is beneficial as we see a more diverse game that will start shifting towards balanced armies.

Also, I imagine a lot more Missile launchers coming, which are decently effective against hordes and bashs.

Gornob

[brokejaw]

I've played Greenskins (40K and Fantasy) for the fun of it for... a long time. I agree with what you are noting in your post - there are more Ork players now. And I think that's a good thing. I figured this would happen with the new codex 'splash' (it's been a long time comming!).
After the hype boils down, I think you'll find more orks still, but we'll be left with right proppa greenies and those who love the 'win' more than the game will move along to the next splash.

[Totgeboren]

seeing as it was my comment that sparked this thread, I feel I have to chip in.

I really like the new codex, and with the new 5:ed rules, basic boys are abit weaker than in 4:ed.

But, what I feel is problematic about the new list is the fact that I have faced both Beakies and guards with list designed to take my boys out, and its still a quite even fight.

I like even fights, but I have to question the powerlevel of the codex when the enemy has to tailor their list against me just to get even fights.

I might just be a better/more skillful/luckier player, but still, when the enemy has tailored their lists against you, you should be at a severe disadvantage.

Looking at the rumors for the new beakie codex, I get the feeling they have raised the powerlevel abit, and if they follow that level with the guard codex, balance between these codices will be restored atleast.

These are just my experiences, and I have read here that many others have some trouble getting the boys to work, so I know my words are not the end-all truth of the matter, but its the situation i am in atleast.

[Krittakilla]

As soon as beakies come out wth all the new wizbangs, all the gits looking for the easy win will go over there and the orks will keep being orks.

[Brother Remmah]

It really depends what army you played, that tooled up against you. If you played versus DA or BA (beakies) all they can do is perhaps swap a lascannon or 2 for a heavy bolter. Or take a flamer here and there. It won't make that much of a difference.

Some armies are better to tool up versus orks then others.

[GrogDaTyrant]

One way to tone down the codex would be to make Kans Elite. Kans or lootas, that would be a tough choice.

I don't mean to go off topic here, but I would like to make a quick comment... IMHO, Lootas should have stayed Heavy Support, and Flash Gitz should have stayed Elites. While before with the old codex, the 2 definitely should have switched up their locations in the force-org chart, now IMHO they belong back where they started. My views on this are due to the fact that Flash Gitz have Nob-like stats now, and their firepower and random AP is decent for what should be an elite unit, while Lootas dish out a crazy amount of firepower, while requiring to stay in one location (like a heavy support dev squad or fire support team).

That's my 2 cents on the matter.


Back on topic, yeah Black Reach will bring an influx of new players, but look at the contents of the starter set. As with the past 2 addition prior, Beakies are still the favored force in the box set. The Orks are ill equipped to deal with Terminators effectively (i.e. no PK nobs), and the only real counter to the Dread is the Deathkoptas. Not to say one can't win with the Ork side of the Black Reach box, but they'd be pretty hard pressed to.

I think the influx of Ork players from the Black Reach box will prolong the 'new-army' syndrome a couple of months, but ultimately it will taper off resulting in the majority of Black Reach starter set purchases building on the existing Beakie player base. That's my divination.

[brutalis]

My opinion about this is that the codex is a bit over the top at the moment, especially against some oppenents (beakies and guard for example).

In my gaming experience with the new edition , it seems nearly impossible to defeat a balanced ork list (lots of boyz, some speed elements, tank etc) with a balanced beakie list, and even with anti -lists its still damn hard.

But from the rumors i'm reading it looks like things will turn the other way around..... To the other extreme... But thats better for me. I miss the days when i had to play much better in order to win.

[hakbash]

I remember back in the dayz of 2nd edition....when every 40k player had a hoard of plastic grots and Goffs from the starter set. Those models have flooded the market and can still be found on ebay and at garage sales. Dirt cheap usually.

I'm really looking forward to the new wave of Ork models that will soon be up for grabs. Once the Panzie players dump the Ork stuff on ebay.

Get ready ladz Loot will be falling from da skies. Er I mean new models will be easily available.

Anyway.
Back on topic, I always play 40k for the fun of it. I use models that I think are cool, I try to keep to the fluff, and don't give a snotlings rump who wins in the end.
In fact its usually more fun to loose to a skumgrod so you can get in a grudge match or two to follow up on youre loss. Nothings better than giving one of youre skumgrods a few wins to keep em overconfident and sloppy for a good krumpin da next time around.

WAAAGH! da never be a Panzie player